I would hope that, if PG and I wrote exactly the same words about (e.g.) Lisp, his post would be upmodded an order of magnitude higher than mine. PG knows what he's talking about as a Lisp programmer, and we all know that. (The published books, the reputation, the history with Yahoo Store, and the existence of this site are big, big clues.) I don't know much about Lisp beyond SICP, and if I claimed I did you would ha…
Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
61–70 of 80 posts
Re: Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
#62Even if you implement this experiment, I bet there will still be an inherent bias for PG-related material, most notably his essays. I really don't have a problem with it... that's what this community is all about. Hacker News is PGs world, and if you don't like it, then go somewhere else.
Hacker News is PGs world, and if you don't like it, then go somewhere else. I don't think this is true. I certainly don't want it to be true.
Re: Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
#63Here are the users with the top median comment scores: ("pg" 4) ("theoneill" 3) ("mechanical_fish" 3) ("garbowza" 3) ("kkim" 3) ("paul" 3) ("cperciva" 3) If there is a difference, it's not huge.
You fail at statistical analysis.
Re: Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
#64Re: Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
#65I would hope that, if PG and I wrote exactly the same words about (e.g.) Lisp, his post would be upmodded an order of magnitude higher than mine. PG knows what he's talking about as a Lisp programmer, and we all know that. (The published books, the reputation, the history with Yahoo Store, and the existence of this site are big, big clues.) I don't know much about Lisp beyond SICP, and if I claimed I did you would ha…
That's an argument from authority, plain and simple. Whether or not you know anything about lisp, your comments about it should be judged on their merits alone. If you truly don't know what you're talking about, it should be apparent to those who do know what they're talking about. A master and a novice might sometimes come to the same conclusions, but seldom because they followed the same thought process. And I sure…
Have you ever wondered why, thousands of years after the ancient Greek experts on rhetoric noted the existence of the "argument from authority" fallacy, we're still awash in authorities? Are we all hopelessly stupid, that we cannot learn to avoid this mistake?
Perhaps. But another problem is that argument from authority is almost never "plain and simple". There's no bright shining line between an argument from authority and an argument based on an overwhelming accumulation of evidence. At some point it comes down to a judgement call.
Suppose a mythical person named Graeme Paul (let's call him "GP" for short) arrived here on news.YC and submitted a one-sentence essay: "Most of the smart programmers that I've met would rather work in Lisp than in Java." My reaction to this would be straightforward: GP is a troll. A very boring troll.
Now let's suppose that GP's post is a bit longer: It begins with his autobiography, in which he talks about his young days as a programmer, and his first encounter with Lisp, and describes the various things he has built in both Lisp and Java. He then gives a detailed, prioritized breakdown of the design of the Java language, comparing Java's features with analogous features in two or three different varieties of Lisp. During this discussion, it becomes clear that GP understands the technical compromises, that he's seen the insides of many real-world Lisp and Java projects, and that he's a gifted explainer. Finally, GP wraps up by summarizing his personal discussions with the designers of Scheme, Java, Ruby, and C.
GP is no longer a troll. He's now making a serious and detailed argument, with many facets, that goes on for pages and pages. He may still be wrong -- history is replete with examples of obsessed experts who were wrong -- but he's got a much better argument.
Now let's suppose that, instead of typing all that information in one monolithic 193-page post, GP spread it out over several hundred blog posts and news.YC comments, posted over several years. At the end of that time, he comes along with a one-sentence post in some language-war thread: "Most of the smart programmers that I've met would rather work in Lisp than in Java."
Because this single sentence is a summary of a long-standing, well-established series of arguments from GP, I might (in the right context) mod it up. Then, no doubt, I would be accused of "not judging this sentence on its merits alone".
The puzzle question here is: Since GP's huge body of published work arguably establishes him as "an authority", is my deference to GP an "argument from authority"? Well, if I've never read any of GP's work but I upmod him anyway because he's famous, the answer is "yes". If I've read GP's earlier work and know that it backs up his latest claim, the answer is "no". Can you, gentle reader, tell the difference between these two cases? Not unless you know my reputation, and/or ask me to provide up to a dozen pages of rationale and clarification.
And there's a huge grey area: If I've read GP's writings on Lisp, and he comes out with a statement about (e.g.) Ruby, how shall I value his expertise when weighing the credibility of his latest statement? It's a judgement call.
Re: Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
#66Re: Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
The experience of reading a comment knowing the commenter's id makes up (a little bit at least) for the lack of face2face. For example, based on a previous discussion, I know that mixmax had sex with a porn star :) When I read his comments now, my brain does some signal processing magic using this. Please note that I don't give him a +1 coz of this history. But this knowledge puts warmth in an otherwise cold place (c…
I should never have written that - how can anyone here take me seriously now? :-)
Sorry...what were you saying? Why can't people take you serious? That's ridiculous.
Re: Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
#68I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. If you are going to do this experiment, it needs to be _double-blind_. Meaning PG cannot know which username his post is going to show up under until after he has written it. Same goes for all the comments he writes (if you're going to measure those too). If PG knows before hand what name his content is going to show up under there is a high likelihood of a bias on his par…
This is easy to protect against. Just obscure pg's real name from a portion of the YC userbase. This is really an extremely easy test to get right if we think for a minute.
If user1 sees 'pg' as the submitter and user2 sees 'blah' user1 might comment something which gives away that it is actually pg to user2. Now user2 might realize this and act on their pg bias.
Can you think of a way to prevent this?
Re: Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
#69"Might be an interesting social experiment." It's not an interesting experiment unless you learn something from it. There's virtually nothing that can be learned from this. Plus, I like being able to follow the comments of pg and others on their threads page.
Agreed -- there probably is something of a pg bias, but it's impossible to measure because his comments and submissions are better than the average anyways.
Edit: To take this idea a step further, maybe have a random chance of any post being attributed to pg and keep track of which ones are actually pg, to see if there's any difference between them.
Re: Ask News.YC: Proposed experiment to test "The PG bias"
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
The experience of reading a comment knowing the commenter's id makes up (a little bit at least) for the lack of face2face. For example, based on a previous discussion, I know that mixmax had sex with a porn star :) When I read his comments now, my brain does some signal processing magic using this. Please note that I don't give him a +1 coz of this history. But this knowledge puts warmth in an otherwise cold place (c…
I should never have written that - how can anyone here take me seriously now? :-)