Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street • Hacker News Board

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#951

Post by ekianjo » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 4:40 AM UTC

fudged71 wrote: post #766

icc97 wrote: post #713

One aspect that comes from this is that now car crashes can be treated more like aircraft crashes. Each self-driving car now has a black box in it with a ton of telemetary. So it's not just "don't drink and drive", knowing that they'll probably reoffend soon anyway. Every crash and especially fatality can be thoroughly investigated and should be prevented from ever happening again. Hopefully there's enough data in th…

Although it's comforting that this exact situation shouldn't happen again in an Uber autonomous car... there is no mechanism to share that learning with the other car companies. There seriously fucking needs to be a consortium for exactly this purpose: sharing system failures. Also my problem with this is that a human death is functionally treated as finding edge cases that are missing a unit test, and progressing th…

> We need to avoid treating deaths as progress in the pursuit of better things

Then by all means lets stay at home and avoid putting humans in rockets ever again because if you think space exploration will be done without deaths you are in for a surprise.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#952

Post by knuththetruth » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 4:50 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #951

fudged71 wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although it's comforting that this exact situation shouldn't happen again in an Uber autonomous car... there is no mechanism to share that learning with the other car companies. There seriously fucking needs to be a consortium for exactly this purpose: sharing system failures. Also my problem with this is that a human death is functionally treated as finding edge cases that are missing a unit test, and progressing th…

> We need to avoid treating deaths as progress in the pursuit of better things Then by all means lets stay at home and avoid putting humans in rockets ever again because if you think space exploration will be done without deaths you are in for a surprise.

Notoriously criminal company killing pedestrians with robo-cars to make money for themselves != Space exploration by volunteer scientists and service members

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#953

Post by cityofghosts » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 4:52 AM UTC

more_corn wrote: post #875

icc97 wrote: post #713

One aspect that comes from this is that now car crashes can be treated more like aircraft crashes. Each self-driving car now has a black box in it with a ton of telemetary. So it's not just "don't drink and drive", knowing that they'll probably reoffend soon anyway. Every crash and especially fatality can be thoroughly investigated and should be prevented from ever happening again. Hopefully there's enough data in th…

Every lesson from aviation is earned in blood. This death wasn't necessary though. The Otto/Uber guys have been informed about their car's difficulty sensing and stopping for pedestrians. I know this because I informed them myself when one almost ran me down in a crosswalk in SF. Can't learn anything from your lessons unless you listen. Maybe they can pause and figure out how to actually listen to their reports of un…

this comment section should be read in front of congress the next time regulating the tech industry is in the table. these people literally think its ok to perform experiments that kill people.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#954

Post by thfaway » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 4:53 AM UTC

keypusher wrote: post #950

> Elaine Herzberg, 49, was walking her bicycle outside the crosswalk on a four-lane road in the Phoenix suburb of Tempe about 10 p.m. > Tempe Police Chief Sylvia Moir said that from viewing videos taken from the vehicle “it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway." This seems like a…

A human being would have honked the horn while driving past something behind which someone can appear suddenly..But I doubt you can add those kinds of logic into a machine learning system...

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#955

Post by a_d » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 5:03 AM UTC

icc97 wrote: post #713

One aspect that comes from this is that now car crashes can be treated more like aircraft crashes. Each self-driving car now has a black box in it with a ton of telemetary. So it's not just "don't drink and drive", knowing that they'll probably reoffend soon anyway. Every crash and especially fatality can be thoroughly investigated and should be prevented from ever happening again. Hopefully there's enough data in th…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16547215

This comment by Animats in the context of self-driving trucks is quite telling. He warns precisely of this danger.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#956

Post by thfaway » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 5:17 AM UTC

fudged71 wrote: post #766

icc97 wrote: post #713

One aspect that comes from this is that now car crashes can be treated more like aircraft crashes. Each self-driving car now has a black box in it with a ton of telemetary. So it's not just "don't drink and drive", knowing that they'll probably reoffend soon anyway. Every crash and especially fatality can be thoroughly investigated and should be prevented from ever happening again. Hopefully there's enough data in th…

Although it's comforting that this exact situation shouldn't happen again in an Uber autonomous car... there is no mechanism to share that learning with the other car companies. There seriously fucking needs to be a consortium for exactly this purpose: sharing system failures. Also my problem with this is that a human death is functionally treated as finding edge cases that are missing a unit test, and progressing th…

>Although it's comforting that this exact situation shouldn't happen again in an Uber autonomous car.

Let me ask something. Did it take a human life to show that "a pedestrian crossing unexpectedly" is a probably thing to happen while driving? I mean, seriously?

Maybe they have trained the cars for this, but this particular incidence was just different enough, which means that your initial implication will not hold ie "Although it's comforting that this exact situation shouldn't happen again in an Uber autonomous car" given that no two situations are exactly the same, and it won't apply even for similar situations...

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#957

Post by gaius » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 5:31 AM UTC

NewEntryHN wrote: post #762

gaius wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ancient Romans would have the civil engineer stand under the bridge they'd just built while a Legion marched over it. That's why Roman structures are still around today!

The comparison is odd to me. Somehow building bridges seems more of an exact science to me than making cars drive themselves. I sure wouldn't step on a bridge if its engineer doesn't dare going under it. Shit is supposed to stand up.

And yet didn't one collapse in Florida just the other day?

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#958

Post by tim333 » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 5:37 AM UTC

>The self-driving Volvo SUV was outfitted with at least two video cameras, one facing forward toward the street, the other focused inside the car on the driver, Moir said in an interview.

>From viewing the videos, “it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway,” Moir said. ( https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Exclusive-Tempe... )

Not saying the software wasn't partly at fault but it doesn't look that clear cut. It sounds like better sensors could have helped.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#959

Post by polishninja » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 5:47 AM UTC

woofyman wrote: post #885

more_corn wrote: post #875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every lesson from aviation is earned in blood. This death wasn't necessary though. The Otto/Uber guys have been informed about their car's difficulty sensing and stopping for pedestrians. I know this because I informed them myself when one almost ran me down in a crosswalk in SF. Can't learn anything from your lessons unless you listen. Maybe they can pause and figure out how to actually listen to their reports of un…

Police are reporting that it never slowed down. Hitting the pedestrian at 40 mph.

It's interesting that the car was exceeding the speed limit of 35 mph. I would assume the car would stay at or below the speed limit. Who gets the speeding ticket in this case? Does 5 mph affect the reaction time such that it could have noticed and taken evasive action?

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#960

Post by johnpowell » Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 5:53 AM UTC

burfog wrote: post #312

ingsoc79 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with self-driving cars is that they can't "read" humans' body language. A human driver can see pedestrians and cyclists (and other cars) and have a rough idea of what they're likely to do in the next few seconds, i.e. the pedestrian leaning out on the crosswalk curb is likely to step into the road soon. Even a reaction time of milliseconds can't make up for the (currently exclusive) human ability to…

They also fail to "write" human body language. Nobody else can predict what the autonomous vehicle will do. It gets worse when a person is sitting in what appears to be the driver's seat. If the car is stopped and that person is looking toward another passenger or down at a phone, nobody will expect the vehicle to begin moving. Making eye contact with the person in that seat is meaningless, but people will infer mean…

I have never driven a car. I walk, bike, skateboard everywhere. If there isn't a light I require human feedback before walking in front of a car. Normally I wave and they wave back. They know I am there.. I can walk.