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Two weeks before death, Hawking submitted a paper on parallel universes

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Re: Two weeks before death, Hawking submitted a paper on parallel universes

#71
post #19
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There cannot be a mathematical proof of a physical fact. You can have infinite number of theories that are all mathematically correct, yet contradict each other. You need data from experiments to falsify the wrong ones. And I think that's why the article means - paper shows what experiment needs to be done to falsify some theories that assume multiverse.

Technically you might be able to do a proof by exclusion if you can show that only one of all the possible theories is sound and consistent.

[deleted]

Re: Two weeks before death, Hawking submitted a paper on parallel universes

#72
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it. Atom comes from atomos, meaning indivisible; if you take the literal meaning, it has no constituent parts.

But that's pretty unreasonable as a line of argument; the derivation of a word from a long dead language has no bearing on the semantic in modern discourse. Atoms have been known to be divisible for over 100 years, the consequences of this knowledge are everywhere in our society!

It's not unreasonable because everyone understands the state things are in. Once upon a time atom was meant to be descriptive, and time has proven that original description insufficient. We could call atoms something else to address this, but it seems like we've decided "atom" stays, its meaning has just evolved over time in specific usages.

This reminds me of how the prefixes we use in computing hardware aren't right either. Your PC might have 8 gigabytes of RAM, but it doesn't literally have 8,000 megabytes or 8 billion bytes, and the same problem with mega- and kilo- too. Somehow we manage and when we're talking gigawatts giga means 10^9, and when we're talking gigabytes in computing we know it has a special meaning, 2^30.

Same prefix, two different usages depending on context. The only thing I can promise you though is we're never going to adopt gibi, mebi and kibi, at least not in my lifetime anyway.

Understanding the history and evolution can be interesting or informative as to why things are the way they are. So yeah, one upon a time "sub-atomic" would make no sense, it makes sense not of course. We're familiar and used to the idea. Wasn't always the case though.

Re: Two weeks before death, Hawking submitted a paper on parallel universes

#73
post #4

Something I've never understood and would greatly appreciate understanding: could someone ELI"5" how the concept of "parallel universes" will not always be a metaphysical instead of a scientific question? If there are truly separate "universes", then by definition wouldn't it be the case that there would be no way to test (or falsify) whether they exist or not, so would the question of their existence not be in the r…

> Something I've never understood and would greatly appreciate understanding: could someone ELI"5" how the concept of "parallel universes" will not always be a metaphysical instead of a scientific question?

At this point it's all theoretical based on our best mathematical modeling of the universe/physics.

> If there are truly separate "universes", then by definition wouldn't it be the case that there would be no way to test (or falsify) whether they exist or not

By definition? No. Extremely difficult and maybe impossible. Yes.

Keep in mind that before powerful telescopes, the outer planets were "guessed" at by mathematical modeling. Astronomers mathematical calculations led them to believe that there should be planetary bodies like uranus and neptune out there. It took further advances in technology/physics to corroborate the mathematical calculations/model.

The same thing for hereditary genetics and the proton/electron/etc. When the first theoretical/mathematical models were first made, we had no conceivable way of "seeing" a proton or DNA.

Re: Two weeks before death, Hawking submitted a paper on parallel universes

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just simplify your whole position to "you can never prove anything"?

In Physics, this might be true, at least for generalizations (I can prove to myself that I currently write this text, for suitable definitions of "I, write, text". I might not be able to prove it to you.). In Math, it's not.

In physics it's absolutely true. You can only disprove theories. You can never prove them.

In math it's relatively true, because you can only prove theorems given a set of axioms and other assumptions you take as true.

Re: Two weeks before death, Hawking submitted a paper on parallel universes

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Physics, this might be true, at least for generalizations (I can prove to myself that I currently write this text, for suitable definitions of "I, write, text". I might not be able to prove it to you.). In Math, it's not.

In physics it's absolutely true. You can only disprove theories. You can never prove them. In math it's relatively true, because you can only prove theorems given a set of axioms and other assumptions you take as true.

In math, this is fine, as long as you can show that your assumptions are consistent.

If you disprove something in physics, you at the same time prove the negative of the something. Of course the negative of a theory is not really a theory by itself.

Re: Two weeks before death, Hawking submitted a paper on parallel universes

#76
post #4

Something I've never understood and would greatly appreciate understanding: could someone ELI"5" how the concept of "parallel universes" will not always be a metaphysical instead of a scientific question? If there are truly separate "universes", then by definition wouldn't it be the case that there would be no way to test (or falsify) whether they exist or not, so would the question of their existence not be in the r…

> If there are truly separate "universes", then by definition

Sometimes words "truly" and "by definition" don't play nicely together, if the established definition happens to be built on mistaken assumptions.

The "atoms" were named like that because they were thought to be elementary and indivisible. Later we learned better, but the name stuck; it would be confusing to try to change it now.

Similarly, the "universe" was believed to be all there is. Maybe it is not. But we already have a thing which has this name, and it would be confusing to rename it, just because we found later that some other things exist too.

The current definition, intuitively, is something like: If you can hypothetically fly there using a rocket (ignoring the light speed limit), it is a part of the universe. If there is no way to get there (even hypothetically ignoring the light speed limit), then it is not a part of the universe... and it is probably wrong to even say that it exists, because how could you know that?

But this is based on an assumption that you can either travel somewhere (ignoring the light speed limit) or there is absolutely no way you could interact with it. And maybe that assumption is true. But maybe it is not... and in such case the reasoning above would fall apart. If there are, uhm, places you could interact with in certain ways, but not in other ways, would they "by definition" be in our universe or not? Well, the definition does not speak about such cases either way, because they were not assumed to exist.

How could you possibly "interact with a place in certain ways, but not in other ways"? I can imagine a few ways, and the nature may still surprise us by doing something unexpected.

Imagine that there are different "regions" such that certain kinds of particles can travel from one to another, but other kinds of particles can't. So for example, we could send there light, and with a bit of luck have some of that light reflected back, but we couldn't travel there. And if in certain direction does not happen to be anything that would reflect the light back from that specific direction, there is nothing we could do about it.

Or imagine that different "regions" interact for certain amount of time, and then stop interacting. So while the parallel universe is connected, we can scientifically prove it, but after it disconnect, we cannot prove the existence of this specific parallel universe anymore. Or maybe the disconnection does not depend on time, but on the number of particles exchanged, so by the mere act of experimentally proving the existence of the parallel universe we are also pushing it away, irrevocably.

I haven't read Hawking's paper, so I don't know if his idea is similar to any of this. It could be something completely different.

Re: Two weeks before death, Hawking submitted a paper on parallel universes

#77
post #18

Truly amazing. Thank you Professor Hawking! RIP.

This statement is in the same domain as “thoughts and prayers”, which is the same as saying, ”I’m wishing at you really hard”. Rest implies an awaking or movement at some point in the future, but for Hawking, he didn’t believe in that. Maybe it’s just something to say, like acknowledging someone sneezing?

Clearly a lot of butt hurt, faithers can't form an intelligent rebuttal, so, down votes.

Re: Two weeks before death, Hawking submitted a paper on parallel universes

#78
post #4

Something I've never understood and would greatly appreciate understanding: could someone ELI"5" how the concept of "parallel universes" will not always be a metaphysical instead of a scientific question? If there are truly separate "universes", then by definition wouldn't it be the case that there would be no way to test (or falsify) whether they exist or not, so would the question of their existence not be in the r…

Yes, and that’s why such theories aren’t popular with theoretical physicists. If you can’t falsify a theory, it isn’t scientific.

The other extreme end, where there is significant interaction between parallel universes isn’t popular, either, because we would have noticed such universes if that were the case.

So, instead, theoretical physicists that think parallel universes may make sense look for mathematical models that either only have tiny interactions between those ‘separate’ universes or at least only have tiny interactions in the neighborhood (in time and space) where we live (the latter might even be a win; a theory that explains dark energy, dark matter or the Big Bang as detectable effects of paralllel universes would be a winner)

In the end, however, it all boils down to educated guessing, with good theoretical physicists being better (or luckier; the difference can be hard to spot if you need only one or two bright ideas/lucky guesses to build a career) at guessing and at building mathematical structures with some desired set of properties.

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