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Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

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Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#201

Have to quote Prof. Teddy here. Context: How new technology is introduced on public streets and we have no choice or say on whether we want it or not, even if it endangers us and gets us killed. > When motor vehicles were introduced they appeared to increase man’s freedom. They took no freedom away from the walking man, no one had to have an automobile if he didn’t want one, and anyone who did choose to buy an automo…

Great points and extremely important.

But at the same time, I don't personally want to go back to an age before automobiles became commonplace. They're too useful to me.

Is that selfish? Sure. But our lives are all shaped by our wants, not by our needs.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#202
post #168

Can we please not overreact and send the whole self-driving research down the drain? What does the statistics say? How many miles have the self-driving cars driven, and how many deaths were they responsible for? How does it compare to a human driver? When a million humans drive a car for a mile, and 1 of them results in a death, it's easy to pinpoint the blame on a "random drunk/distracted driver". How'bout start thi…

> What does the statistics say? How many miles have the self-driving cars driven, and how many deaths were they responsible for? How does it compare to a human driver?

As of December 2017 Uber had driven 2 million autonomous miles[1]. Let's be generous and double that, so 4 million.

The NHTSA reports a fatality rate (including pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers) of 1.25 deaths per 100 million miles[2], twenty five times the distance Uber has driven.

You probably shouldn't extrapolate or infer anything between those two statistics, they're pretty meaningless because we don't have nearly enough data on self driving cars. But since you asked the question, that's the benchmark: 1.25 deaths per 100 million miles.

[1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/bizcarson/2017/12/22/ubers-self... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_safety_in_the_U...

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#203

The reason self-driving car companies have flocked to Arizona is that Arizona chose to pretty much completely deregulate them: They don't even have to report statistics to the state like they do in California. It's unfortunate, but unsurprising, the first pedestrian killed by an experimental self-driving car allowed on public roads was in Arizona.

What will the consequences of this person’s killing be? Will someone lose out on a promotion, or miss their performance bonus? We need to discuss how the developers self-driving cars will be held accountable for the crimes they commit. There is no reason the person who programs or the person who makes money from a self-driving car should be held less accountable for a crime that if committed directly by a person woul…

> You can’t replace yourself with a computer program and then choose to take only the benefits and not the responsibilities.

Look, I'm all for developers and (software companies in general) to be considering the ethical implications of the work they do, and the moral obligations that they take on as a result of it. However:

> We need to discuss how the developers self-driving cars will be held accountable for the crimes they commit. There is no reason the person who programs or the person who makes money from a self-driving car should be held less accountable for a crime that if committed directly by a person would almost certainly result in jail time. You can’t replace yourself with a computer program and then choose to take only the benefits and not the responsibilities.

This is a bad mentality to take with postmortems for software failures in general, at least from the outset. You need to look at the underlying factors that contributed to the issue, not simply looking for a person to assign blame to. It's possible that negligence is the underlying cause, but not necessarily - and even if negligence is a cause, what were the other cultural factors that led to the negligence happening, without being caught somewhere else in the pipeline? It's tempting to look to assign blame, but if you do that, you'll actually miss out on the systemic improvements that would be necessary to prevent similar incidents in the future.

But moreover, this is a bad outlook to take here, because this wouldn't be criminal behavior if committed by a human. From the best we can tell, given the details available so far, it's an accident, and it's very rare for criminal charges to even be considered in accidents like these, unless it's a hit-and-run.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#204

FTA: "The Uber vehicle was reportedly driving early Monday when a woman walking outside of the crosswalk was struck. ... Tempe Police says the vehicle was in autonomous mode at the time of the crash and a vehicle operator was also behind the wheel." That's a very bad look; the whole point of self-driving cars is that they can react to unexpected circumstances much more quickly than a human operator, such as when some…

The first martyr of the AI age, I suppose.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#205
post #157

I'm saddened by this incident but have thought a lot about this eventuality. there are a few levels of societal acceptance of self driving car death outcomes i can think of: A - Human equivalent: self driving car obeys reasonable rules that a human also would eg minimum speed on a highway and kills someone B - Trolley problem: (very artificial scenario) self driving car has to choose between killing N or M people whe…

How does it work out? I mean you got a situation wher SDC kills someone where no human driver would, but somehow it gets safer?

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#206

FTA: "The Uber vehicle was reportedly driving early Monday when a woman walking outside of the crosswalk was struck. ... Tempe Police says the vehicle was in autonomous mode at the time of the crash and a vehicle operator was also behind the wheel." That's a very bad look; the whole point of self-driving cars is that they can react to unexpected circumstances much more quickly than a human operator, such as when some…

I have seen no evidence that any autonomous vehicle currently deployed can react faster than an alert and aware human. The commentariat tends to imagine that they can, and it's certainly plausible that they may eventually be. But I've never seen anyone official claim it, and the cars certainly don't drive as though they can quickly understand and respond to situations.

[deleted]

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#207

FTA: "The Uber vehicle was reportedly driving early Monday when a woman walking outside of the crosswalk was struck. ... Tempe Police says the vehicle was in autonomous mode at the time of the crash and a vehicle operator was also behind the wheel." That's a very bad look; the whole point of self-driving cars is that they can react to unexpected circumstances much more quickly than a human operator, such as when some…

Not bad even a self driving car can stop in time for deer jumping out from behind tree/bush cover. People still need to look both ways when coming out from behind cars. I want more details.

That's a really good point that many (myself included) aren't mentioning. Stopping distance is a universal, reaction times be damned. Would be curious to see if that played a part.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It’s not a problem if Uber kills pedestrians, even in situations where it’s completely avoidable. It’s only (legally) a problem if they’re violating the rules of the road while doing so.

> It’s only (legally) a problem if they’re violating the rules of the road while doing so. I doubt that's true, but even if it were, I believe the rules of the road are "always yield to pedestrians, even if you have the right-of-way".

In general motorists are not held strongly accountable for killing pedestrians or cyclists. Juries in the U.S. are very reluctant to convict. I'm not sure Uber can rely on that, however. While juries are reluctant to convict drivers, driverless vehicles are another matter. As I said in another comment, they're going to have to invent a crime that puts cyclists and pedestrians positively at fault in these situations.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#210
post #146

The people leading the development should demonstrate that they can stop for pedestrians by personally jumping out in front of them on a closed test road. If they're not able to demonstrate this, they shouldn't be putting them on public roads.

The ancient Romans would have the civil engineer stand under the bridge they'd just built while a Legion marched over it. That's why Roman structures are still around today!

>The ancient Romans would have the civil engineer stand under the bridge they'd just built while a Legion marched over it. That's why Roman structures are still around today!

JFYI, it is most probably apocryphal: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18558/were-roma...

still it's a nice one, I have heard the same about engineers/architects in ancient Babylon and Egypt.

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