Wow--a crude implementation of Whuffie.
China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
291–300 of 602 posts
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
That seems like what happens once you have a felony in U.S. I mean that a felony removes your right to vote, makes employment much more difficult.
How does whataboutism about bad US policy improve the nature or standing of China's bad policy?
I merely bring it up because it's something we can improve in the U.S. It does not excuse China, which seems to go two steps further down a bad road.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#293I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel document, ability to stay at any hotel, etc. Let that sink for a bit, before you claim that Google or even NSA can do something similar.
I am a Chinese expat, but I don't have a National ID. I have a Chinese passport, but I cannot even buy train tickets online (yet i can ride the train) with it and I cannot open a bank account in my own country. Things will get worse with 'social credit' as another barrier because I won't have a credit history with them.
[edit] removed claim that Chinese expat won't be able to fly in China without National ID because some say the viral news is a rumor. Honestly i cannot tell any more.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#294Once again, I’m disappointed in how quickly the comments on these articles about China doing horrible things devolves into defense of America. It’s sort of like a reverse whataboutism.
Ideally learning about what bad things other countries are doing would allow us to look at what similar things we do in our own country and then work to improve things. Instead the opposite seems to happen, and we actually draw a line under our current policies while saying “well, at least here...”.
Other people doing horrible things is not justification for us to do less horrible things. Conversely, because we do bad things doesn’t mean we can’t criticize the bad things others do. On the other hand, we are in a much better position to change things in our own country than in foreign countries.
I’ll end my commment by repeating that what China is doing here seems like a step in the wrong direction, and is not something we should be defending.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
We ban them after due process procedures are complete - which often involves knowing your accused crime and accuser, lengthy evidence gathering, and impartial trials. As I understand the Chinese social capital system, there is no due process, you may not even know if you've been cited for anything until the punishment comes, and violations are identified without appeal.
More than 90% of criminal convictions are the result of pleas, not trials. Few people can come up with the sort of money needed to mount a serious defense to a criminal charge. And in some cases the state can take your money up front, so you definitely don't have the resources to mount a defense.
You're right - and the plea process is part and parcel of Western due process. You're still facing an accuser and know what crime you're being charged for. You have legal council - even if court appointed - helping you make the plea.
None of which apply under the "social credit" system.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#296To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'
Already happened with Wells Fargo, who fired and blacklisted employees that refused to create extra (illegal) accounts for their customers. Those employees couldn't get a job in finance again.
> Already happened with Wells Fargo, who fired and blacklisted employees that refused to create extra (illegal) accounts for their customers. Those employees couldn't get a job in finance again.
It's worth noting that Wells Fargo ironically did that by abusing a fraud reporting system:
> The blacklist is called "U5," and it's maintained by the finance institutions as a way of alerting each other to fraudsters who are fired for breaking finance rules. The list was designed to protect banks from fraud, but it has no defenses against fraudulent banks.
https://boingboing.net/2016/10/31/wells-fargo-blackballed-em...
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
>from who gets more police attention, arrests, charges, plea deals and how heavy the sentences are None of this detracts from the fact that these laws are ultimately relatively clear in their restrictions, compared to China's social score. Theft is theft. Drug possession is drug possession. Had these "unfairly" targeted individuals followed the law, they would not be subject to its penalties. Sure, I recognize that v…
What a bunch of bigoted hogwash. How many times must the particulars of the system be documented and disseminated before these arguments go away completely? If you are white and wealthy, then drug possession is against the law only in vague terms on paper. It is not your practical reality. That's how the drug war has been made into the new jim crow. It's astonishingly simple, and very real. > If you wish to stay out…
>If you are white and wealthy, then drug possession is against the law only in vague terms on paper.
Not to discount your other points, but this is exactly how the Chinese system will work as well. (and already does in other respects from what I have heard and read)
>What a bunch of bigoted hogwash.
What did he say that was bigoted? (I am serious, by the actual definition [0], not the pejorative commonly thrown around to silence dissent) As a side note, my brother has a felony on his record, so I have some knowledge of the cause and effects.
[0] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigoted
Edit: This turned sour fast... not sure it's worth replying to comments.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#298Earlier quoted context omitted.
It isn't the beginning of a new caste system. It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals. (Not that I agree with Confucian philosophy) Confucian philosophy had influenced Chinese culture for several millennial, and the oral tradition was that Confucius (Kong Tzu) himself distilled what went into the Analects from much older rites and cultures. The basic idea here is that humans don't start out as…
> It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals Confucious also said "those who cannot forgive others break the bridge over which they themselves must pass.”
as long as the score can go back up, that Confucian requirement would be met.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#299To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'
Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.
[deleted]
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Over a decade ago the US recognized the huge mistake of mass incarceration, as such the US prison population has peaked and has begun to decline, with both sides of the political aisle now openly discussing how to correct that broken system. Until the US has a share equal to its percentage of the global population of incarcerated people (instead of 4-5 times that), and has abolished the death penalty, the shame tha…
> Btw, regarding China, let's cut it some slack. No, let's not "cut it some slack" on human rights abuses in the making.
If the cure is the usual "bomb them to democracy", I'll take the abuses...