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Adrian Lamo has died

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Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#151

Post by praneshp »

notthemessiah wrote: post #48
praneshp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids, don't be a snitch. No good group of people has that rule. I've seen/heard about that rule so far from the mafia, drug dealers, and bad cops.

Would you say that Daniel Ellsberg shouldn't have "snitched" to the public on the assessment that the Vietnam War was unwinnable? You seem to conflate "good" with "authority" here.

I think you read my point in reverse? I agree with you, that the snitching is good. There's probably something to debate on what's snitching and what's being a traitor, but that's not the same debate IMO.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#153

Post by danso »

notthemessiah wrote: post #51
jakear wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But when you're being a snitch, don't snitch out the people that were snitches for you. Manning released the identities of Afghan nationals who helped the counterinsurgency, leading to their deaths at the hands of the Taliban.

[citation needed]

Nothing seems to have been revealed so far.

- https://www.buzzfeed.com/jasonleopold/secret-government-repo...

> Regarding the hundreds of thousands of Iraq-related military documents and State Department cables provided by the Army private Chelsea Manning, the report assessed “with high confidence that disclosure of the Iraq data set will have no direct personal impact on current and former U.S. leadership in Iraq.”

- http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/feb/...

> In the several years since WikiLeaks released hundreds of thousands of government documents leaked by Manning, the government has not publicly identified a single example of the Taliban killing someone because that person was named in the leaks. If someone had died as a result, it seems logical that the incident would have become public knowledge, either through Manning's trial or in media reports.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#154

Post by tzs »

benchaney wrote: post #147
tzs wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is possible to specifically name anyone who actually died because of the leaks. It's similar to lung cancer deaths caused by smoking cigarettes. No one has ever been able to specifically name someone who died from lung cancer caused by smoking. In every single case, it is possible that the named person is one of the many people each year who die from lung cancers caused by things such radon exposure,…

That's awfully convenient. I supposed we should just trust anyone whenever they claim that their abuses being uncovered hurts American interests. Particularly when their claims are completely unverifiable. I wonder if people will eventually stop falling for such a completely transparent attempt to muddy the waters.

Are you suggesting that it is OK to put numerous third parties in danger (the people whose names being exposed would make them Taliban targets were generally Afghan civilians, not Americans) if the circumstances are such that no one will ever be able to prove that any specific one of them actually comes to harm from that danger? Even when releasing those names does nothing whatsoever to help expose any abuses?

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#155

Post by ameister14 »

dnautics wrote: post #35
ixtli wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snitching has a very specific definition here, i think: it's telling on someone to power. You can't snitch on the US government's secret abuses of power because the people deserve to know.

well the US is predicated on the principle that the power of the government is derived from the people, so in principle (and ultimately de facto) the people of the US have more power than the government, and telling on the abuses of power is a means to get the problem rectified (or else why would Manning have done it?)

There are a lot of reasons to release hundreds of thousands of documents at random that have nothing to do with rectifying problems. Hurting an organization that doesn't support you, for example.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#156

Post by ameister14 »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #91
throwaway9063 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hi, I know this is a thread about someone's passing, and I'm gonna let you finish, but unless you adopt my preferred method of reasoning on this tangential, hot-button topic that I haven't even given you a chance to properly discuss, you're an abusive person. The polite thing to do is to think and talk the way I'm telling you to and move on with your life, because otherwise, you're a monster."

> unless you adopt my preferred method of reasoning on this tangential, hot-button topic that I haven't even given you a chance to properly discuss, you're an abusive person. You're literally putting words in my mouth there. I said that was a tactic favored among abusive people. That's not an accusation, that's an observable fact about how abusive people behave. I choose my words carefully, y'know.

You know who else does that? Abusive people. I'm not saying you're an abusive person, but that is definitely behavior shared by abusive people. It's just an observable fact. I chose these words very carefully so you know I am not accusing you of being abusive, just associating you with abusive behavior.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#157

Post by aaron695 »

eganist wrote: post #64

There's merit to discussing whether his actions were beneficial or not. But for the love of god, if you've got a problem with him as a person, pocket it unless you know discussion of the specific problem you had with him will with certainty serve the public good. You've got every right to say what you want, but think it through. I didn't know him, but I've known plenty of others with questionable reputations who've d…

You might have been correct, except you end with -

> Rest in peace, Adrian. Regardless of what you did, beneficial or otherwise, no one deserves the mind-shackles you had to live with.

This is the problem.

If they were a true friend you should NOT be going to HN to talk about it, it should be amongst friends in person or not quite as good, but for some personally online is is their best... true friends know about these issue.

If not a true friend you are playing in current societies toxic environment of - I must prove I'm part of sadness / relying on a unhealthy construct for my personal health.

You are just virtue signalling.

For some... online communities are the best they have... but this is like giving the homeless a box. Don't piss on it but don't think this is appropriate.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#158

Post by danso »

CydeWeys wrote: post #71
VectorLock wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that also apply to Manning?

It more so applies to the tens of thousands of people who knew about these various crimes and did nothing. Snowden is a better example of how to handle responsible disclosure than Manning, however.

Worth pointing out that Manning had apparently tried to leak to the WaPo and NYT but was ignored:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/01/us/bradley-manning-admits-...

> Private Manning said he first called The Washington Post and spoke to an unidentified reporter for about five minutes. He decided that the reporter did not seem particularly interested because she said The Post would have to review the material before making any commitment.

> He said he then tried to reach out to The New York Times by calling a phone number for the newspaper’s public editor — an ombudsman who is not part of the newsroom — and leaving a voice mail message that was not returned.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#159

Post by toomuchtodo »

VonGuard wrote: post #47
jsmthrowaway wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, man. His body's not even cold and it was well-known that he was experiencing mental health issues, potentially his entire life, including discovering he suffered from Asperger's after an involuntary hold (that he described himself). Your venting isn't actually far from that diagnosis making sense. Is this really the time and place for this?

Actually, I feel my comment is about as even handed as I could muster. Aspergers or not, he hurt a lot of people.

Sometimes comments should be kept to ourselves, for another day.
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