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A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

nytimes.com

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Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#91

Post by perpetualpatzer »

Someone wrote: post #53
paulddraper wrote: post #2

This is already true for incarceration; a billionaire and a nurse lose the same amount of time. And one's time is paid more than the other's. Speeding is a weird example though. If I'm driving I pay based on my income, but if my driver is driving he pays based on his? > In 2015, it handed a businessman a $67,000 speeding ticket for going 14 miles per hour above the limit. I just don't see how going 14 mph with zero o…

”I just don't see how going 14 mph with zero other damage is equivalent to compensating the public $67k” This isn’t about compensating the public (is the criminal justice system ever?) AFAIK, there traditionally are three arguments for punishment: revenge, prevention of repetition, and punishment. This, I think is about the latter two.

Your third argument for punishment is "punishment"? Did you mean something else there?

I think the US criminal justice system frequently does make an effort to compensate victims where doing so is straightforward and a necessary part of "unwinding" the crime. For example, someone convicted of wire fraud typically forfeits their ill-gotten gains and where possible, those funds typically go to the victims.

There is a broader concept of criminal restitution, though you're right, more frequently, making amends to victims happens on the civil side.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#93

Post by gnud »

kingofhdds wrote: post #77
gnud wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws should obviously apply equally. Exactly for that reason, fines should not be the same for someone who earns $15/hr and $1500/hr. A fine of $150 is 10 hours of work for one person, and 6 minutes for the other. How is that equal application of the law?

The same logic (if applied consistently) would make judges give longer prison sentences to younger, healthier individuals.

... if the only point of prison is punishment.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#94

Post by paulddraper »

onion2k wrote: post #5
paulddraper wrote: post #2

This is already true for incarceration; a billionaire and a nurse lose the same amount of time. And one's time is paid more than the other's. Speeding is a weird example though. If I'm driving I pay based on my income, but if my driver is driving he pays based on his? > In 2015, it handed a businessman a $67,000 speeding ticket for going 14 miles per hour above the limit. I just don't see how going 14 mph with zero o…

I just don't see how going 14 mph with zero other damage is equivalent to compensating the public $67k. Speeding is a crime because you're risking the safety of other people. There's only "zero damage" if you're lucky. There's potential for a lot of damage. Considering the defined punishment is supposed to act as a deterrent I would argue $67k was actually too low.

The $67k penalty is merely for exceeding the speed limit by 14 mph, not for actually causing a crash or harm.

You would of course be liable for any damages actually caused.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#95

Post by paulddraper »

Someone wrote: post #53
paulddraper wrote: post #2

This is already true for incarceration; a billionaire and a nurse lose the same amount of time. And one's time is paid more than the other's. Speeding is a weird example though. If I'm driving I pay based on my income, but if my driver is driving he pays based on his? > In 2015, it handed a businessman a $67,000 speeding ticket for going 14 miles per hour above the limit. I just don't see how going 14 mph with zero o…

”I just don't see how going 14 mph with zero other damage is equivalent to compensating the public $67k” This isn’t about compensating the public (is the criminal justice system ever?) AFAIK, there traditionally are three arguments for punishment: revenge, prevention of repetition, and punishment. This, I think is about the latter two.

This isn't a criminal case though; it's a civil one.

Civil law is focused on restitution.

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#97

Post by mrguyorama »

supreme_sublime wrote: post #78
lox wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia we have a demerit point system, although technically if you have enough money you can pay to get around it.

The United States has the same thing. Get too many traffic infractions in a certain time window (a year or two, might depend on the state) and you get your license revoked.

Certain states allow you to pay double the fine and ignore the points. This was used by groups[0] doing road rallies across America.

[0]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1nstSui0tPnJtMF2OZx5tw

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#98

Post by mrguyorama »

perpetualpatzer wrote: post #89
RhysU wrote: post #73

By what right should the officer be able to learn my net worth the moment he or she thinks I made a moving violation? Do you want possibly unscrupulous officers learning your net worth anywhere you travel?

Moreover, do we as a society want to spend money on discovery procedures to accurately identify speeders' net worth? What do you do if a corporate executive tells the officer he has no assets or income? Personally, if we think speeding is a problem worth spending on, I'd rather hire two more traffic officers than one lawyer and one accountant to adjudicate fine amounts. This may be one of those good ideas that falls…

As far as I understand, Germany implements this system, and it seems to work pretty well

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#99

Post by RestlessMind »

caseysoftware wrote: post #3

This seems like backdoor civil asset forfeiture but it would allow them to take assets that aren't even present and/or involved at the time of the "offense". Can you see a particularly cash-strapped town telling officers to skip the Toyota Camrys and instead pull over the BMWs? It seems ideal for abuse, selective law enforcement, and likely other bad behaviors. Oddly enough, this would likely go away with self-drivin…

> Can you see a particularly cash-strapped town telling officers to skip the Toyota Camrys and instead pull over the BMWs?

No I see a world where neither Toyotas nor BMWs are speeding. But if both are speeding, then owners of both should feel equal amount of pain. And equal amount of pain won't come from equal amount absolute fines (300$ is a drop in the bucket for a billionaire, significant for a poor person).

Re: A Billionaire and a Nurse Shouldn't Pay the Same Fine for Speeding

#100

Post by perpetualpatzer »

mrguyorama wrote: post #98
perpetualpatzer wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover, do we as a society want to spend money on discovery procedures to accurately identify speeders' net worth? What do you do if a corporate executive tells the officer he has no assets or income? Personally, if we think speeding is a problem worth spending on, I'd rather hire two more traffic officers than one lawyer and one accountant to adjudicate fine amounts. This may be one of those good ideas that falls…

As far as I understand, Germany implements this system, and it seems to work pretty well

Do you know how they validate income? I suppose you could take historical tax filings, which it looks like is what Finland does. Even with that, though, you create the potential to significantly over-burden people with irregular income streams.

It looks like the UK tried day fines in the early 90s and dropped it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4173913.stm).

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