I've never really understood why conservatives are so reluctant to look after their environment, after all they get to live in it as well.
They aren't reluctant, but you have to speak their language. You may be eager to see a government agency placing limits on businesses, but that won't go over well at all. A better approach is to speak in terms of paying for what you damage. The economy matters, and you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet... but you pay for anything you break. So you end up charging a price, preferably to be paid to those who a…
What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
41–50 of 174 posts
Re: What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, American Indians and probably most of the indigenous peoples of the Earth would thoroughly and fundamentally disagree that the invented concept is "public land", but rather "private land". In a world where corporations buy land, pillage all of its natural resources, then sell off a smoking crater, the loser is always the environment, as corporations and people downcycle real estate constantly, extracting their…
If you're talking about the pre-colonization state of these cultures, they would disagree with a lot of concepts we use now. For example, zero and negative numbers. Does it mean that zero and negative numbers are morally bankrupt?
I can give more examples of B.) where corporations visit environmental destruction on lands they own (e.g. gold mines) and then sell off the leftover, ruined real estate, having still profited handsomely in the end.
Re: What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
I consider myself a really pro market guy, but I can't agree with the statement: > free enterprise will work to protect the environment, as anything that hurts the market will hurt profits I mean, isn't the environment the prime example of a situation where externalities and the tragedy of the commons describe the problems for the free market to solve the problems at hand? Further, free enterprises exist to maximise…
Imbued in your statement is an even more difficult knot to undo. "Tragedy of the Commons" is caused by the very existence of the modern state. Common land = public land. In a truly private system, one in which all land was owned, every parcel of land would have some advocate who cared very deeply about the environmental quality of their land. You producing pollution on your land that negatively affected mine would re…
None of this libertarian fantasy is remotely feasible, even after you assume that you can assign property rights to every molecule of the earth and have to sign contracts to take a breath.
Re: What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imbued in your statement is an even more difficult knot to undo. "Tragedy of the Commons" is caused by the very existence of the modern state. Common land = public land. In a truly private system, one in which all land was owned, every parcel of land would have some advocate who cared very deeply about the environmental quality of their land. You producing pollution on your land that negatively affected mine would re…
Hm, that doesn't sound very convincing to me. When I fly over Germany, it appears to me that actually almost every land is owned by people that are affected by the environment a lot: Farmers. Furthermore, air polution is one of the biggest environmental concerns right now, and air does not care about land ownership - city people are affected by bad air, but how would their situtation be better without the modern stat…
Nearly every culture that has ever existed has recognized that someone taking something from you by force is crime. Its a normative expectation for nearly 100% of all humans.
People like yourself, who don't see a value in others property (ie. think you are free to take it), are generally seen as very dangerous and inconsiderate people.
Re: What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
#45I've never really understood why conservatives are so reluctant to look after their environment, after all they get to live in it as well.
As someone who is broadly centre left in outlook, I do actually agree that there is some truth to this. From what I've seen, many environmental campaigners do talk in terms of complete economic and political transformation. And they are often conflate environmental issues with other issues of social and economic justice, even when the actual links between them is questionable. For example, do we have to solve issues of gender, racial, and income inequality in order to stop climate change?
Personally, I think that these issues are not inextricably linked. I'd like to see improvements in all of them. But I also think that climate change is a more pressing issue, because while human-scale problems can always be fixed with more time, runaway climate change is likely a one way process, and one with a very narrow window of opportunity to address. I think many environmental campaigns would find a more receptive audience amongst conservatives if they focused more narrowly on the specific issues of pollution and climate change.
Of course, campaigners do have a answer for this. They argue that these issues are inextricably linked. That the capitalist system is incorrigibly rapacious, and all these different problems are really just products of the underlying dysfunction, and cannot be tackled in isolation. That "evolutionary" improvement is simply an emollient that cannot address the fundamentally catastrophic impact of the free market and the global supply chain on the biosphere, and as such, revolutionary change, even though very difficult, is the only solution that can work, and therefore the only thing worth campaigning for.
My take is that, while some of the fundamentals of modern capitalism are basically broken, with respect to environmental impact, they are still delivering results, in terms of general reduction of overall poverty and improvements to quality of life for the very poorest, and security for the richest. As such, it's not realistic to expect to achieve major changes through campaigns focused on policy. Instead, campaigns to influence policy should focus on specific issues that mitigate the worst of climate change and pollution. Their purpose should be to buy us enough time as a species to solve the other problems using technology. Technological change can deliver genuinely transformative changes to the economy, as we're seeing with the adoption of renewable energy and electric vehicles, but not always fast enough.
Re: What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hm, that doesn't sound very convincing to me. When I fly over Germany, it appears to me that actually almost every land is owned by people that are affected by the environment a lot: Farmers. Furthermore, air polution is one of the biggest environmental concerns right now, and air does not care about land ownership - city people are affected by bad air, but how would their situtation be better without the modern stat…
>because I would call property rights a legal fiction Nearly every culture that has ever existed has recognized that someone taking something from you by force is crime. Its a normative expectation for nearly 100% of all humans. People like yourself, who don't see a value in others property (ie. think you are free to take it), are generally seen as very dangerous and inconsiderate people.
Property Rights exist, at best, as part of a human narrative that we have some interest in designating a legal owner for a piece of dirt. Without humans, the dirt is not owned. With humans, we say we own the dirt (but there is no actual, objective ownership).
>People like yourself, who don't see a value in others property
I don't think GP made that point, rather that until Humans come along, no ownership, ie, public ownership, is the default. The land is owned by nobody until someone buys it.
This can be shown with an example; Mars. Who, at this current moment, owns mars? All the dirt on mars must, by your argument, be owned by someone.
Re: What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
I consider myself a really pro market guy, but I can't agree with the statement: > free enterprise will work to protect the environment, as anything that hurts the market will hurt profits I mean, isn't the environment the prime example of a situation where externalities and the tragedy of the commons describe the problems for the free market to solve the problems at hand? Further, free enterprises exist to maximise…
Imbued in your statement is an even more difficult knot to undo. "Tragedy of the Commons" is caused by the very existence of the modern state. Common land = public land. In a truly private system, one in which all land was owned, every parcel of land would have some advocate who cared very deeply about the environmental quality of their land. You producing pollution on your land that negatively affected mine would re…
No, you have it backwards. The "tragedy" was a fiction invented to justify the Acts of Enclosure in the UK, wherein public land (commons) was fenced off for sole use by the local lords.
Here's a good explanation: http://www.monbiot.com/1994/01/01/the-tragedy-of-enclosure/
In a truly private system, one in which all land was owned, every parcel of land would have some advocate who cared very deeply about the environmental quality of their land.
OK, here are two counterpoints:
First, if land is held in common, everybody has a share of ownership, including people who actually live there and therefore really do care deeply about the environmental quality.
Second, just look at the recent stories about Toys'R'Us. It was purchased in a leveraged buyout in 2005 -- meaning the buyers paid relatively little and the company was saddled with a massive debt. By your argument, wouldn't those new owners care deeply about the long-term health of the company? Instead they extracted as much cash as possible and left behind a bankrupt shell. I think the analogy to private land is pretty clear.
Re: What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
#48When I was younger, I honestly believed in the explanation that left to their own devices, free enterprise will work to protect the environment, as anything that hurts the market will hurt profits. What I didn't take into account was that this argument doesn't work for enterprises run by beings with limited lifespans. All except the most empathic humans will not incur any cost to avoid consequences that are beyond th…
On the contrary. Give property rights to everything and individuals and corporations will have every incentive to protect what they own, be it environmental resources or anything else.
This obviously means the company will quickly run out of resources and employees but depending on the severity of the deployed sacrifice, this can take decades, a time span that corporations have shown on several occasions to not care about.
Re: What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
#49I've never really understood why conservatives are so reluctant to look after their environment, after all they get to live in it as well.
As I understand it, the conservative attitude is that environmental concerns are either overplayed, or simply a Trojan horse invented to push anti-business/anti-capitalist policies, and a leftist agenda in general. They believe that many of the most fervent environmental campaigners are not really interested in evolutionary improvements to the current system, but instead want revolutionary change, including the compl…
As someone who left a part of the country that votes Republican to Dem 9:1, this is the mindset of most rural voters (where I'm from at least).
They think pollution and grime are "city problems" because city people are just "dirty sons of bitches". These are people who, once their car breaks down, they just put it into the woods/a creek and forget about it. Old tires? Do the same. Loads of plastic garbage? Slow burn it outside since they don't want to pay the monthly garbage fee. These people think they're clean, but they never stop talking about how it's getting dirtier these days because "those city people are buying up houses here and bringing their shit with em", and not that their waste has just accumulated. In my chunk of rural America, the only reason it's not a total wasteland is because the population density is so low. For how many people live in cities, they're pretty clean. If they were to adopt more rural lifestyles, waste would be everywhere.
Re: What America looked like before the EPA, in photos
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Imbued in your statement is an even more difficult knot to undo. "Tragedy of the Commons" is caused by the very existence of the modern state. > Common land = public land. In a truly private system, one in which all land was owned, every parcel of land would have some advocate who cared very deeply about the environmental quality of their land. The state is the entity that owns all land - prior to states land was s…
>The state is the entity that owns all land Who owns the state?