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Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

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Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#111

The specs sound impressive and would truely make VR much more complelling (I have an oculus rift and the resolution is noticable even on low spec games). On the other hand I would wait until actual units are out there but it doesn't seem that outlandish that Google and LG would be unable to pull this off. I assume this is targeted to the gaming market because at those specs unless you sell it at a loss the MSRP is go…

> their VR has mostly been focused on mobile so them focusing on the high end market is really interesting The one consistent thing about Google's VR/AR strategy so far is that it's extremely inconsistent. Different groups within Google are taking a lot of shots on different technologies and form factors with different partners. Some examples include Google Glass (built by Google X, now revived as Glass X for Enterpr…

Their inconsistency can be a result of them releasing products not to actually have a consumer goal but to just collect massive amounts of data and killing it when they are done.

Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#112
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy server hug, batman! (Chief Blur Buster here, I noticed the traffic spike). BTW, GPU is a problem, but we're expecting Frame Rate Amplification Technologies to solve the problem. Basically improved versions of Oculus Spacewarp that can do large framerate multiplication factors with zero parallax artifacts (unlike today). I covered this topic near the bottom of a different article about the journey to 1000 Hz disp…

I‘m intrigued how a lag-less frame interpolation would work - the algorithm can’t look into the future, or can it?

Current headsets, at least the Rift, already do "look into the future" to lower the motion-to-photon latency (the amount of time between you moving your head and the screen updating based on that).

When you're dealing with a head moving, and very brief slices of time, inertia plays a large role and allows for fairly accurate prediction. After rendering the frame they check head position again, update their prediction for head position at time of display, and move/warp the frame slightly to match. This does require rendering a slightly larger view.

I remember when Oculus cracked the 20 ms mark and got down into imperceptible lag, it was very exciting. They bragged at the time that their predictive models would let them get down to 0 ms eventually, but I'm not sure if they've hit that yet.

Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#113
post #96
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also don't need to render at full resolution. A significant benefit of higher res VR displays is not being able to physically see the pixels / screen door effect of the screen. You still get this benefit by rendering at a lower resolution and upscaling to the display resolution. Certainly you will be able to see 'render pixels', but that's a much less significant problem and just reduces the realism of the scene.

If you add eye/focus tracking you can selectively render the part in focus in a higher resolution and use lower resolution for peripheral vision. The end result is that you are rendering at exactly the bandwidth that the human eye can handle, which is optimal and probably not that high. Going forwards, this is IMHO where the real optimization gains are.

That's a really interesting idea, but can you imagine how incredibly annoying it would be if there were any level of latency? Seems like even a few 10s of milliseconds of latency would make that rather horrible. Especially considering how fast your eyes can dart around a screen, could we even do that today?

Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#114
post #100

I'm looking forward to the next generation of VR headsets immensly. A lot of people have been quick to jump on the "VR is already dead" train, but having picked one up during Christmas this year, it's obvious how much potential is there. There are a few things that need to be accomplished before widespread adoption: - Removal of wires. It restricts movement too much and removes immersion. The new HTC headset is a ste…

VR is not dead because the resolution isn't high enough. It's dead because it's been around for 30 years and no one has found a useful application for it.

Are you a troll or just brain-dead?

Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> average computers to be able to render high frame-rates without breaking the bank High res stereo at 120Hz is never going to have to same graphics as the latest high budget big game release. Current GPUs are already very powerful, but if people have the expectations of getting the same graphics when they use VR they are going to be very frustrated.

Never is a long time. Screens can only get so good before they're pointlessly higher resolution, and at that point GPUs will keep increasing in performance. At some point your GPU runs out of things to do.

Sounds suspiciously like not ever needing more than 64KB of RAM.

The reality is that greater horsepower allows for greater abstraction, and easier to program APIs. Increasing developer productivity 2x reduces performance 10-100x, or something like that. So there’s never “enough” performance for the same reason there’s never “enough” powerful/usable APIs.

Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#116
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy server hug, batman! (Chief Blur Buster here, I noticed the traffic spike). BTW, GPU is a problem, but we're expecting Frame Rate Amplification Technologies to solve the problem. Basically improved versions of Oculus Spacewarp that can do large framerate multiplication factors with zero parallax artifacts (unlike today). I covered this topic near the bottom of a different article about the journey to 1000 Hz disp…

I‘m intrigued how a lag-less frame interpolation would work - the algorithm can’t look into the future, or can it?

Not all things that look like "interpolators" need traditional lookforward lag.

Mice and head trackers can already run at 1000 Hz. It's the GPU that cannot keep up.

Instead of black-box interpolators (e.g. Sony MotionFlow), a smart interpolator can be made to know the high-frequency controller inputs in realtime, and doesn't even need to use guesswork-based interpolation for everything.

Just shift everything around based on the high-refresh 1000Hz controller input. (In other words, "reprojection").

Also, knowing more data about the source (e.g. near-zero-lag controller input stream) eliminates lots of interpolation guesswork. It's much like how H.264 (video compression) is heavily interpolation-based mathematics during the video codec, but it had full awareness of the source video material, to successfully compress it virtually artifact-free.

So basically, you are simply giving a smart interpolator full awareness of things like geometry & input at a higher rate than the GPU renders. To avoid guesswork on those kinds of items.

Things like future multilayer Z-buffers can help solve a lot of parallax-reveal problems of trying to create intermediate frames, and there are future tweaks they are working on to eliminate reprojection artifacts. Like artifacts or reprojection distortions around edges of objects in front of objects. So adding intermediate frames with full parallax effects can eventually become artifact free because of the GPU's knowledge-in-advance of what-behind-what. Basically, more advanced reprojection algorithms that can create near-flawless intermediate GPU frames (without lookforward) without a full polygonal rerender.

Prediction helps (as it does for Oculus), but remember, we have controllers that already go at ultra high frequencies, and it is expected headtrackers will eventually become ultra high frequency too -- and that extra data can reduce the need to do lookforward prediction.

It's all very complex, with many researchers working on multiple solutions, but it can reduce the average processing-power-required per extra frame, and it can theoretically allow high reprojection ratios without lookforward lag (e.g. theoretical future 10:1, such as multiplying 100fps to 1000fps, at least with 1000Hz input devices like 1000Hz gaming mice, and 1000Hz head trackers).

Several VR scientists have indeed advocated the need for 1000Hz eventually, someday in humankind, as there are confirmed tangible immersion benefits to getting that high and beyond.

That's why I wrote that article full of motion demos explaining the visual science concepts of why 1000Hz displays are needed. It will be useful for passing a theoretical future Holodeck Turing Test (not telling apart a VR headset versus transparent ski goggles in a reality-versus-VR blind test), in terms of Morarity-style or Matrix-style "it's real" VR.

Many tricks layers upon each other, to achieve what's being achieved today, and this creativity will only continue. Lagless lookbehind-only interpolation (utilizing ultra-high-Hz controller input to reproject new 3D position). Foveated rendering too, yes. Realtime beamtracing with realtime denoising (NVIDIA scientist paper), perhaps. Maybe even all piled on top of each other simultaneously, perhaps.

Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#117
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy server hug, batman! (Chief Blur Buster here, I noticed the traffic spike). BTW, GPU is a problem, but we're expecting Frame Rate Amplification Technologies to solve the problem. Basically improved versions of Oculus Spacewarp that can do large framerate multiplication factors with zero parallax artifacts (unlike today). I covered this topic near the bottom of a different article about the journey to 1000 Hz disp…

I‘m intrigued how a lag-less frame interpolation would work - the algorithm can’t look into the future, or can it?

You can make educated guesses about the future, which is how Oculus's Asynchronous Spacewarp works. Rendering a whole frame is slow, but warping a pre-rendered frame is fast. If the next frame is taking too long to render, you can warp the last frame to roughly match the perspective that corresponds with the current head tracking data. You get some artefacts, but they're not as noticeable as the judder caused by a missed frame. Prediction can also be used to estimate the head-tracking data at the time the frame is drawn to the display, rather than at the time the frame starts to render.

Similar techniques are used in video compression - encoding the exact value of every pixel is expensive, but you can trade bandwidth for processing by encoding transformations of a previous frame. A modern compressed video consists mainly of these interpolated frames, with only a minority of frames containing a full image. This interpolation can use data from both past and future frames (B frames) but can also use just the data in previous frames (P frames). This works extremely well most of the time, but there are some edge cases:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Rp-uo6HmI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_compensation

Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#118

I'm looking forward to the next generation of VR headsets immensly. A lot of people have been quick to jump on the "VR is already dead" train, but having picked one up during Christmas this year, it's obvious how much potential is there. There are a few things that need to be accomplished before widespread adoption: - Removal of wires. It restricts movement too much and removes immersion. The new HTC headset is a ste…

When i think about VR, i think first about alot of other stuff before i think of gaming.

Alone for remodeling my flat (kitchen, bathroom) or building a house.

I would also like to train on a virtual lathe before using a real one.

I might buy the new htc vive and i will see it as an early adopter beta hype thing because there is still work to do, but in general it feels already really good.

That Valve Portal Demo, wow that frightned me a little bit :)

Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#119
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The diffuser will blur the image, the opposite of what you want. Higher resolution screen with upscaled input does not sacrifice clarity for blur/no SDE. Upscaled input won't have as high detail as a higher resolution input, but the performance gains of the upscaled input far outweigh the negatives.

It seems like there should be a middle ground where you blur enough to remove SDE but not enough so that pixels overlap. The whole problem with SDE is that there is a perceptible gap between pixels - blur will spread the pixel over the gap but the gap is what ensures that the pixels do not become blurred ontop of each other. I assume this doesn't work in practice (since I don't think anyone is doing it), so I'd be in…

Instead of blur, microlens arrays can be used to increase the pixel size to cover the gaps.

The microlens can also be designed to blur the RGB together to provide a true white pixel from the approx three coloured subpixels.

Re: Google and LG creates VR AMOLED 120 Hz at 5500 x 3000

#120
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there should be a middle ground where you blur enough to remove SDE but not enough so that pixels overlap. The whole problem with SDE is that there is a perceptible gap between pixels - blur will spread the pixel over the gap but the gap is what ensures that the pixels do not become blurred ontop of each other. I assume this doesn't work in practice (since I don't think anyone is doing it), so I'd be in…

Instead of blur, microlens arrays can be used to increase the pixel size to cover the gaps. The microlens can also be designed to blur the RGB together to provide a true white pixel from the approx three coloured subpixels.

Absolutely something I was thinking, but not sure what the right terminology is! "Microlens" sounds fancier than you need, I'm really happy to just diffuse it but with a limited blur so that they don't bleed.
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