Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#701

Post by moduspol » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:31 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #700

moduspol wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think we've reached the absolute apex of having a well-informed citizenry? Of course not. > If not, if critical thinking doesn't work, what could we do to improve this situation? I'm not sure "well-informed" and "critical thinking" are even relevant to each other, but putting that aside, I genuinely don't know. That's why I asked how you teach critical thinking. It's possible people are bound to retreat to t…

> because it hasn't. Implying it's been tried, and failed. Where has widespread teaching of critical thinking been tried?

I've seen it in numerous course syllabi and mandates. I'm not sure how to cite that, though. Here are a few examples where it is assumed the existing education system / teachers claim to be teaching critical thinking.

> Public school teachers and administrators will tell you that one of the mandates of public education is to develop critical thinking skills in students. They believe that curricula are designed, at least in part, with this goal in mind. [1]

> Common Core, the federal curriculum guidelines adopted by the vast majority of states, describes itself as “developing the critical-thinking, problem-solving, and analytical skills students will need to be successful.” [2]

> Many teachers say they strive to teach their students to be critical thinkers. They even pride themselves on it; after all, who wants children to just take in knowledge passively? [3]

Are you willing to acknowledge educators / curricula commonly claim to teach critical thinking? To me it's always come across as something claimed to be taught pretty much everywhere. Yet we both seem to agree it's not working.

We could try teaching critical thinking differently and potentially meet some success, but that doesn't change how it's been claimed to have been taught for some time with poor results.

[1] http://argumentninja.com/public-schools-were-never-designed-...

[2] http://www.newsweek.com/youre-100-percent-wrong-about-critic...

[3] http://theconversation.com/lets-stop-trying-to-teach-student...

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#702

Post by forapurpose » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:42 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #537

forapurpose wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HN generally works very well After reading a few discussions over the last few days, I was thinking to my self that HN was better than ever, and very good (with one serious shortcoming). Even the echo chamber is much better than I remember. EDIT: The shortcoming, IMHO, is the abandonment of politics. HN is the ideal place to solve that problem, with s sophisticated audience open to and interested in experimentation…

> HN is the ideal place to solve that problem That's an illusion, for reasons I attempted to describe here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16443431

Thanks for responding.

> That's an illusion, for reasons I attempted to describe here

That implies that it's an unsolvable problem, if I understand correctly. There's no reason to think this problem is any more difficult than all the other 'unsolvable' ones and this one is particularly, I would even say 'extremely' valuable to work on.

I don't believe we simply could introduce political topics and it would work due to some HN magic. It would take serious work and experimentation to find a solution, but I think HN is better suited than other places to do that work. And a solution could change discourse in the country and the world, at a time when discourse on the Internet problems SV has invented has become a very dangerous weapon for some, and is tearing society apart.

I realize that "we" means you and sctb more than anyone, and so it's a request and encouragement. I still think it's the most valuable thing HN could do, potentially world-changing. Previous generations had books and leaders that changed the course of history; this time it might be software or a software-based technique that turns the tide. I hope that at least you will keep it in mind.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#703

Post by ddingus » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:58 PM UTC

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #676

ddingus wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible to appeal sans a set of rules. The appeals are rooted in norms, and the process is a dialog, kept recoverable, not a trial. Explain to me how a set of rules isn't a formalized expression if the will of those who created them? There is more to all of that, in particular, security and agency. But, those details aside, norms operate much like rules, and are far more resonant, and community owned t…

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying that there are both benefits and costs to having rules.

Indeed.

I'm not entirely convinced rules are indicated for all discussion forms and communities.

It's a human problem, and using humans and human ways has advantages.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#704

Post by mistermann » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 11:02 PM UTC

moduspol wrote: post #701

mistermann wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because it hasn't. Implying it's been tried, and failed. Where has widespread teaching of critical thinking been tried?

I've seen it in numerous course syllabi and mandates. I'm not sure how to cite that, though. Here are a few examples where it is assumed the existing education system / teachers claim to be teaching critical thinking. > Public school teachers and administrators will tell you that one of the mandates of public education is to develop critical thinking skills in students. They believe that curricula are designed, at le…

> Here are a few examples where it is assumed the existing education system / teachers claim to be teaching critical thinking.

> Are you willing to acknowledge educators / curricula commonly claim to teach critical thinking?

I'm not in denial of some sort ffs, I'm frustrated at watching our society coming apart at the seams because the vast majority of the population seems to be incapable of intelligently reading a newspaper article, and will fall for seemingly any trick in the book.

Of the examples of "critical thinking education" listed above, do any remotely approach the critical thinking specific education I'm talking about here?: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16572861

People are absolutely inundated with propaganda nowadays, like no other time in history, with social media being the most powerful weapon by far. We are graduating our children and sending them intellectually defenseless into this new world, I don't know if the average human mind can be brought to a level sufficient to cope with the propaganda created by the world class experts in persuasion who are working for a variety of deep pocketed entities, but at least we could try.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#705

Post by moduspol » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 11:22 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #704

moduspol wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen it in numerous course syllabi and mandates. I'm not sure how to cite that, though. Here are a few examples where it is assumed the existing education system / teachers claim to be teaching critical thinking. > Public school teachers and administrators will tell you that one of the mandates of public education is to develop critical thinking skills in students. They believe that curricula are designed, at le…

> Here are a few examples where it is assumed the existing education system / teachers claim to be teaching critical thinking. > Are you willing to acknowledge educators / curricula commonly claim to teach critical thinking? I'm not in denial of some sort ffs, I'm frustrated at watching our society coming apart at the seams because the vast majority of the population seems to be incapable of intelligently reading a n…

> Of the examples of "critical thinking education" listed above, do any remotely approach the critical thinking specific education I'm talking about here?

Well no, but my claim wasn't that your suggestion has been tried. It's that other people have been claiming they've been teaching critical thinking for some time, and it's not working.

I agree it's a problem--I just don't think a class in logic will do it. I'm not sure it's teachable at all, and even if it is, I'm not sure those same skills won't be ignored the moment the argument questions one's identity or becomes emotional.

Is it worth trying? It's easy for me to say "sure," but it's not on me to implement, and I'm certainly not sure how to assess whether it'd be successful.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#706

Post by prepend » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 12:30 AM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #384

prepend wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the discussion and I’d need to see the link. While obviously calls for violence are illegal (FBI steps in), there are many possibilities where the discussion could be useful (eg, convincing people to better understand refugees). Largely I’ve been desensitized to complaints about TD as typically it results in hyperbole (eg, election was a direct threat to people’s lives).

"It depends on the discussion" You're gonna have to provide a context in which this wouldn't be a terrible and unacceptable thing to say, cause I can't think of one.

Not whether it is a terrible thing to say. But whether saying it should be banned.

Here’s a super simple example.

Jerk: “I think we should shoot immigrants” Non-jerk: “that’s a bad idea because immigrants have souls” Former-jerk: “good point. I changed my mind and no longer think shooting immigrants is a good idea. In fact, I will now dedicate my life to helping the needy and everyone who reads this thread should as well.”

It would be bad to ban a thread such as the one above.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#707

Post by prepend » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 12:37 AM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #229

prepend wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coon town is obviously offensive, but easily avoided (ie, not a problem). I casually followed the Leslie Jones incident and don’t see the problem. The brigading seemed easily avoided by Jones and was actually amplified by media covering how bad it was. My twitter feed doesn’t show mentions by randos, so Jones should have been able to easily filter out at the client. She may have for all I know. So both your examples…

"Coon town is obviously offensive, but easily avoided (ie, not a problem)." It is until it starts to leak. "I casually followed the Leslie Jones incident and don’t see the problem." I honestly cannot see how one can see the incident, and cannot see a problem with thousands of posters telling an African American woman that she's an ape. "The brigading seemed easily avoided by Jones" That is blaming the victim. "So bot…

“I honestly cannot see how one can see the incident, and cannot see a problem with thousands of posters telling an African American woman that she's an ape.”

Let me clarify. Obviously, thousands of people calling someone an ape is a problem. But one that is easily avoided by disabling twitter replies to your account. So it’s not a problem for anyone that it happens to.

So when I say “I don’t think this is a problem” I mean that it’s not a problem that can’t currently be solved and not worthy of trying to stop the thousand assholes.

It’s not blaming the victim to point out that if you change a setting you save them from pain. It’s not Leslie Jones fault at all that people are jerks. But maybe she didn’t know how to configure twitter. If so, wouldn’t it be a shame that if no one wanted to help her learn for fear of victim blaming?

I equate this as worrying if people are sitting in their living room gossiping about you and saying mean things. Somehow you have the magic ability to listen in. You do and are upset. Certainly you can try to make those people stop being jerks. Or you can stop listening. Or maybe do both.

The problems seem solvable if your goal is to not encounter jerks harassing you online. Since you can filter them out. If your goal is to not have jerks, then definitely not solvable. But that’s a stupid problem to solve through authority. The way you solve jerks is through love and education.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#708

Post by prepend » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 12:40 AM UTC

cup-of-tea wrote: post #209

prepend wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you filter out user sentiment without downvotes? I think there are flaws in downvoting, but they are less than systems with only upvote (eg Facebook). Upvote only encourage extreme views that attract attention because if 5% like and 95% dislike (theoretical) this is ranked higher than 4% and 0% dislike. What we really need is a score that is like as percentage of views that will be more meaningful. Mixing in s…

I've never actually used Facebook so I haven't seen the effects of only upvoting. But up/downvoting is not meant to signal agreement or disagreement anyway. It's meant to signal whether it's a useful post or not. But people treat it as the former which is why it creates echo chambers. I think the Facebook "upvote" is meant to signal agreement. Does it also make the post go to the top?

Something like that.

Ultimately it doesn’t matter what up/down vote is supposed to mean. It matters what the outcome is.

Up means prioritize, down means deprioritize.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#709

Post by hyperpallium » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 12:41 AM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #150

We tend to think we’re more in control of our behavior than we actually are. That is, our brains are operating from habit a large amount of the time, and the idea of the CEO brain consciously deciding our every action is largely an illusion. This is why emergency exit doors must open outwards. People have died in fires in theaters trying to push on doors that said “Pull”. The crash bar on an emergency exit door is wh…

We are on rails. Even "The Road Less Travelled" is another road, ignoring the infinity of directions we could actually take.

We can't even notice the other possibilities, let alone consider them.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#710

Post by jessaustin » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 1:48 AM UTC

tmuir wrote: post #547

jessaustin wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Empirically? One suspects a different adverb would have been more correct in that sentence.

Do you contend that human beings have not empirically measured the spherical, or roughly spherical shape of the Earth?

If parent had been talking about chemistry or physiology or any subject that can be explored via controlled experimentation, I wouldn't have complained. Instead the topics were geological and evolutionary history, which seem very much not "empirical". Not that I suspect that those sciences are wrong in any sense, but words have meanings.