A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal” • Hacker News Board

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#171

Post by Erlangolem » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:32 PM UTC

mozumder wrote: post #157

sombremesa wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Doesn't work here, since Erlangolem made the statement that it's not testable. Erlangolem made that explicit assertion, and now has to back up that statement up.

I don’t, because this is nothing new and all of the ground has been covered. The argument over an ability to test, or not, spiritual matters is older than us, and I doubt that this site wants theological arguments. In short, I replied to someone restating an ancient concept, and I replied with a very old rejoinder. Souls and gods are not rational, and the argument inevitably is just a matter of one side finding gaps in knowledge to shoehorn beliefs, and the other tightening the screws. It literally never ends, and it’s the opposite of intellectual stimulation.

If you really want that argument, life and the internet are overloaded with opportunities to have it until all parties are dead. Very little ever moves or happens, but occasionally someone gets a book deal.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#172

Post by salawat » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:32 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #55

sarabande wrote: post #6

In the case when you die, but your brain still exists, and it starts processing it again in a new host (computer or organic), isn't that not you anymore? Why would my former self want that? Is this a solved philosophical problem for which literature exists?

Is it still you when you wake up every day? What about after general anesthesia? You only know you are you because of your memories. The future brain will have the memories, so it will think it's you, just like you think today that you are the same you that were awake 3 days ago and 10 years ago. Are you afraid of nonexistence when you fall asleep, and envy the tommorow's you that he will live in your body and get to…

I think the question you seem to be asking flippantly deserves more thought than you are giving it.

Even if memories are structural, network theory tells us that all parts of a network are not necessarily visible or accessible from all points at all times. The "You" making an executive decision could only be seeing a subset of your entire memory structure.

This difficulty can be even more clearly expressed by looking at the how neural networks even work. It's not just structure that determines output. It's a combination of structure and sigmoid function, spread out over time as results of previous computations fine tune the network.

You'd have the hardware to run your person on, but you'd have no information on the full informational state stored by which circuits are firing, which are building up to fire, and how fast each one is building up.

Even if you did, you'd lack a "reboot" harness capable of generating that state on demand across the entire brain that could both physically share the same space the brain is occupying AND not interfere with the mechanisms by which it operates.

What you haven't realized is that your conception of identity has been fine tuned since birth through your use of language to represent "You". Whatever woke up after the theoretical reboot would NOT be the "You" that went into it. It would be "You" to itself. Little more, little less.

If you sit down and think it through, you should be able to realize that even if you could build something to do this theoretically, practically implementing it would be a fool's errand courtesy of physics. Namely sensitive dependence on initial conditions, and the Pauli Exclusion Principle.

Nevermind the Engineering considerations. How do you measure a successful reboot? What is your error tolerance?

Or the sociological/ethical implications. Can the environment/society support you? Could you adapt? Would you even be able to assimilate? Would you bring some sort of toxic ethic or moral taint that the society has considered taboo?

Hell, we have kids based on a natural drive endemic to our biology. Now you're talking about placing on our descendants the literal decision of "Should we let this one exist to influence us?"

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#173

Post by colanderman » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:35 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #167

There's a company in the US that pitches taking care of your pets after "the rapture" (a once-in-the-history-of-the-world event where, apparently, the righteous will ascend to heaven). It's a kind of insurance, because you won't be able to pay the company after the rapture, so you have to pay now. Also, the company has to be manned by evil people (as a matter of fact and marketing), because if they were good they wou…

I suppose you don't get your money back if your pets die pre-rapture?

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#174

Post by mozumder » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:37 PM UTC

Erlangolem wrote: post #171

mozumder wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't work here, since Erlangolem made the statement that it's not testable. Erlangolem made that explicit assertion, and now has to back up that statement up.

I don’t, because this is nothing new and all of the ground has been covered. The argument over an ability to test, or not, spiritual matters is older than us, and I doubt that this site wants theological arguments. In short, I replied to someone restating an ancient concept, and I replied with a very old rejoinder. Souls and gods are not rational, and the argument inevitably is just a matter of one side finding gaps…

That's a lot of words just to say "I can't really prove my statement or back it up with facts."

And, no, this isn't "ancient arguments" Fundamental forces of nature weren't all known until about 80 years ago, and there are plenty of unknown in science, including things like dark energy and whether the universe is a simulation. We don't even know if string-theory can be tested or not. It might take too much energy, or it might involve new science discoveries to test. Who knows.

In the end just don't make self-congratulatory assertions you can't actually back up, otherwise people like me will call you out on it.

Thanks.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#175

Post by devgutt » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:39 PM UTC

I think we need to completely understand every detail of the brain in order to successfully make a cryogenic procedure viable. But at this point, we will not need this procedure anymore.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#176

Post by resource0x » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:40 PM UTC

gloriousduke wrote: post #142

saputeweobo wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a fascinating idea. Did you take it from somewhere or did you conceive it by yourself? I would love to read about it.

This idea's been passed around the psychedelic community, even so far as to suggest a drug like LSD or DMT changes your brain chemistry enough that you receive a different form of consciousness, endowing one with everything from the ability to commune with "machine elves" to providing a priori insight into the unitary nature of existence. Unfortunately these ideas get weaved within New Age-type thinking and I tend to…

I got interested in the notion of plant intelligence lately; my conjecture is: mushrooms produce psilocybin for themselves, to improve their own creativity and/or life experience :)

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#177

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #163

noetic_techy wrote: post #107

This is going to sound a bit out there, but what if your brain is simply an antenna for your consciousness to come through from wherever. Has anyone actually tried to boot up an artificial brain derived from a real organism? I'd like to see a proof of concept that your brain IS indeed the seat of your consciousness, and not just a fancy quantum antenna.

If you've ever suffered from Depersonalization/Derealization disorder, it will become very clear that your mind and your consciousness are not the same thing at all . DP/DR is quite possibly the worst mental disorder you can ever fall into. It is the feeling where you are convinced everything around you is not real, you see people you know, you know they are significant, but they just feel like actors in a show and y…

Eh, easily attributed to brain chemistry and not necessarily anything woo.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#178

Post by eggpy » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

drb91 wrote: post #170

eggpy wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start here: > In 2013, 138.3 million taxpayers reported earning $9.03 trillion in adjusted gross income and paid $1.23 trillion in income taxes. [0] Assuming the taxes collected this year are even remotely similar, and assuming this grant came 100% from income tax, and assuming you pay an equal amount in taxes as everyone else, this grant cost you (960000/1.23 trillion)=1/1281250 of the taxes you paid. I know t…

> Also, who says this is "the elite" wanting to live forever and us schlubs footing the bill? ...because it will be the rich who can afford such an exclusive treatment. Additionally, it's just straight up irrational--quantity of life does not improve quality. It is a better decision to spend your money on your quality of life. Why even waste 8 cents on this? Peter Thiel can pay for all the young blood he wants, so lo…

I get your hesitation, but for me the real value is in this sentence:

> It has also won a $960,000 federal grant from the U.S. National Institute of Mental Health for “whole-brain nanoscale preservation and imaging,” the text of which foresees a “commercial opportunity in offering brain preservation” for purposes including drug research.

The rich can do what they want, invest in the businesses they want, and no I don't necessarily want my tax money used for those purposes. But this research sounds like it has potential to be really valuable to humanity as a whole, commercial applications notwithstanding. And that's how science in this country works. Either it's funded by a company like Pfizer where it's locked behind gilded doors or it's funded by taxes and carried out at a university where it's open for all to look at, and given those options I know my preference.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#179

Post by devgutt » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:42 PM UTC

simplify wrote: post #140

noetic_techy wrote: post #107

This is going to sound a bit out there, but what if your brain is simply an antenna for your consciousness to come through from wherever. Has anyone actually tried to boot up an artificial brain derived from a real organism? I'd like to see a proof of concept that your brain IS indeed the seat of your consciousness, and not just a fancy quantum antenna.

Even as a Christian, I think the idea of a human being more than the dust they're made of is only wishful thinking. If consciousness is not sourced from the brain, then why is memory so dependent on the brain?

Maybe memory is overrated in the great scheme of things.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#180

Post by eggpy » Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

hartator wrote: post #165

eggpy wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start here: > In 2013, 138.3 million taxpayers reported earning $9.03 trillion in adjusted gross income and paid $1.23 trillion in income taxes. [0] Assuming the taxes collected this year are even remotely similar, and assuming this grant came 100% from income tax, and assuming you pay an equal amount in taxes as everyone else, this grant cost you (960000/1.23 trillion)=1/1281250 of the taxes you paid. I know t…

> Also, who says this is "the elite" wanting to live forever and us schlubs footing the bill? I think it's reasonable to think that's someone that is ready to put aside $10,000 in the eventually of an accident leading to coma for the small odds that future people will be able and willing to give him a new body is probably part of the elite.

True, but the research involved could be applicable to a lot more situations that aren't specifically this. Peering deeper into the brain than currently possible sounds pretty useful.