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‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

villagevoice.com

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Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#121

Post by notyourday »

guardiangod wrote: post #12
arzt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More importantly, they used the overcrowding excuse as a means to raise $800mm+ from New York taxpayers. If this capital wasn't necessary given the problems they cited were non-existent, this amounts to fraud.

That's not a really fair way to put it as the signaling system is still the root cause of the slowdown. 1. Outdated signaling system cannot handle current load at high safety threshold 2. Network could not upgrade signaling system due to lack of money 3. Network responses by slowing down critical paths and putting in more locks 4. System capacity drops So yeah, you still need the money to fix slow things.

I'm rather familiar with the L. Signal upgrades wont create a large improvement - it is already a fully automated line ( there's a sign at the end of every platform that spells out that the trains of the L are under automated traffic control ). It was just designed in the bone-headed way - just look at the 8th ave termination point or realize where the switches are in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#122

Post by gsnedders »

masklinn wrote: post #76
gsnedders wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Union culture can be significant though. From my understanding, in the US I'd expect a union to refuse any form of automation indefinitely; in other countries, they might accept it if the redundant staff are provided training for another job with good employment prospects.

> Union culture can be significant though. Union culture is as antagonistic in France as in the US (for the same reasons that corporations are antagonistic) and it not only has multiple GOA4 metro systems running right now across the country[0], Paris is actually converting existing lines to full automation . All of Germany (which has a much more cooperative union culture) has two GOA4 lines both in Nuremberg, meanwh…

AFAIK all the Paris lines moving to GoA4 have been done with no compulsory redundancies.

Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#123

Post by derefr »

voidlogic wrote: post #107
njarboe wrote: post #44

This article has a lot of text before getting to describing the problem. Summary: Train wreck 1995 and a installation of a safety-first, CYA response that slows down the trains and does not increase safety. Longer Summary: Train wreck in 1995. Maybe driver was asleep. Start installing new signals that not only automatically stop the trains when there is a train ahead (good idea and already in place), but also when go…

>Trains used to go up to 55mph with no systemic problems. During the age of steam, express passenger trains regularly exceeded 55 mph. For example, during the 1930s the Burlington Zephyr regularly exceeded 85 mph. For example it made the Chicago to Denver run in 1934 in 13 hours rather than the 18 hrs it takes today. Source: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/transport/2009/05/stop_th...

The parent is talking about subway "trains" (sets of coaches, with each car having its own small electric engines, all powered by a common third rail); not, er, train trains (vehicles that pull themselves along two rails using a locomotive.)

Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#124

Post by JackFr »

stcredzero wrote: post #26

But there is one type of delay that’s gotten exponentially worse during that time: a catchall category blandly titled “insufficient capacity, excess dwell, unknown,” which captures every delay without an obvious cause. This smacks of corruption or of elements of society deciding that systems aren't going to simply work anymore. The population of New York City when I lived in Queens was 7.3 million when I lived there…

> one type of delay that’s gotten exponentially worse

C'mon Village Voice, that's not a log chart!

Growing exponentially has a real meaning and it doesn't mean growing fast.

Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#125

Post by romwell »

jseliger wrote: post #88
efuquen wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark has one of the highest union participation rates in the world and they were able to a build a fully automated metro system in Copenhagen.

Denmark is also considerably different than the U.S. along many dimensions: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-23/you-can-t... and not just this one.

So it's not the unions then. It's how they function in NYC.

Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#126

Post by mseebach »

gsnedders wrote: post #66
masklinn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Docklands opened in 1987 but is only GOA3 (the train runs automatically but requires a staff member responsible for departure & emergency situations). Port Island Line (Kobe) opened as GOA4 (fully automated) in 1981 followed by Lille Metro in 1983 and Vancouver's SkyTrain in 1985. The US has several GOA4 systems, though they're mostly airport shuttles and people movers (AeroTrain at Dulles, Monorail at Tampa, STS at…

> Wow, that's a bit ridiculous. Less than what's happened with the London Underground Sub-Surface Railway, which is now on the third resignalling contract to get them to GoA Level 3.

And here we are approaching the crux of the issue. Building a new line so it's fully automatic is relatively straightforward. Re-engineering an existing line to make it automatic (without shutting it down for months, which understandably is rarely an option) is like performing open heart surgery on a patient while he is running a marathon.

Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#127

Post by megy »

ryankupyn wrote: post #93
sushisource wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those of us who aren't familiar with the price history what's the lie here?

The MTA is comparing single-ride fares with "effective" cost per ride of a then-$81 30 day pass, which they amortize over around 70 rides, which is a bit high for the average person in my experience (though not ridiculous). It might be more accurate to compare the single-ride fare then with the single-ride fare at the time the photo was taken, which was either $2.00 or $2.25 (the price changed in 2009, I think).

Did they have multi-day passes back then? It might be reasonable to compare the cheapest options available then.

Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#128

Post by mistermann »

bsder wrote: post #119
mistermann wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which will never happen. Yet another of China's many advantages: ease of optimization.

As long as you agree with the optimization that the man in charge is implementing. If you don't, well, in China, sucks to be you.

It depends. You may not enjoy certain micro-optimizations, but to me it seems perfectly possible that even though living in a communist dictatorship has many negatives, the net benefits under a benevolent dictator could easily surpass the drawbacks, especially when compared to a free but largely corrupt Western society where the benefits may not make it outside the top 10%.

And this isn't even getting into the longer term prospects of the very real danger of the efficiency and scale of China starting to eat into the core economies of other nations as they move away from simple manufacturing and beginning moving up the value chain, as we are now seeing.

Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#129

Post by adrianratnapala »

JackFr wrote: post #124
stcredzero wrote: post #26

But there is one type of delay that’s gotten exponentially worse during that time: a catchall category blandly titled “insufficient capacity, excess dwell, unknown,” which captures every delay without an obvious cause. This smacks of corruption or of elements of society deciding that systems aren't going to simply work anymore. The population of New York City when I lived in Queens was 7.3 million when I lived there…

> one type of delay that’s gotten exponentially worse C'mon Village Voice, that's not a log chart! Growing exponentially has a real meaning and it doesn't mean growing fast.

Yes. Even if you think the complaint is mathematical pedantry, the original sentence still uses a big fancy word wrongly when it could have used simple ones correctly.

Both "...quickly gotten worse..." and "...gotten much worse..." are sharper.

Re: ‘The Trains Are Slower Because They Slowed the Trains Down’

#130

Post by danieltillett »

smilekzs wrote: post #14

Risking asking the obvious: What is stopping us from having autonomous subways, considering we are almost gonna have autonomous cars?

Everyone is blaming unions, but it is really culture. NYC is very corrupt, has been for a very long time (part of its charm), and this corruption is at all level of society. It just happens that the effects of corruption at the MTA is very visible.
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