Would You Unschool Your Child? • Hacker News Board

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#91

Post by lotharbot » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 8:53 PM UTC

joshkaufman wrote: post #68

fr0sty wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just as unfair a characterization of home-schoolers as the GP.

What part do you think is an unfair characterization - that some parents prefer to isolate their children for religious/moral reasons, or that doing so can lead to social awkwardness? According to a 2001 U.S. Census survey, 33% of homeschooling households cited religion as a factor in their choice, 14% objected to what the school teaches (i.e things like evolution), and 9% cited morality. (See data at http://www.cens…

> "That means 51.1% of homeschooling parents in the US think their kids would get a better education at school"

No, that's not what it means.

It means 48.9% thinks "better education" is their main reason for homeschooling. For the other 51.1%, "better education" is not the main reason, but may still be on the list.

It's true that a non-trivial percentage want to isolate their children from the mainstream, but please do not misrepresent the statistics to make your point.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#92

Post by notahacker » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 9:10 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #72

reader5000 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, one of the ironies of school is that one of its sole conceivable benefits is socialization, which is heavily punished and restricted. I have no idea where it was agreed upon that sitting passively listening to middle-aged people lecture for six hours a day is in anyway helpful to a young person, but whatever.

I think the absolute biggest hurdle that homeschooling faces is that people always compare it against the Platonic ideal of schooling. You know what? I'd send my kid to the Platonic ideal of a school, no problem. But no such thing exists. Instead we must compare real schools to homeschooling. Yes, the same real schools that feature in the news for their sinking curriculum, over medicating, lowering standards, increas…

The reverse also applies: a lot of parents won't consider homeschooling their kids because they're not remotely suited to educating their kids and unfortunately many parents that do homeschool their kids have some pretty funny ideas about education.

Being placed into a group of peers (some of whom you wouldn't voluntarily associate with) in a structured environment with people telling you what do do sounds like a pretty realistic preparation for adult life to me. Even learning to memorise and draw Annie Apple and Clever Cat some time after my parents had taught me to read illustrated a rather more important perspective; the real world doesn't always run at your own pace.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#93

Post by petercooper » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 9:25 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #63

petercooper wrote: post #61

Because the article mentioned not memorizing the alphabet, I thought I could ask a question I've been pondering on a while. Beyond looking at print indexes and dictionaries, is there any compelling reason to learn the order of the alphabet anymore? Lists are often in alphabetical order but it's not a strict requirement to know the ordering to use those lists, and most datasets online have search. As do digital dictio…

A binary search on a sorted list can only work if you know whether the item you're looking for is earlier or later in the sequence. Not knowing the order of the alphabet is like not knowing the order of the numbers 0-9. You have to fall back to a linear search, which is prohibitively slow for many day-to-day operations.

Appreciate the point in the first sentence; that's just what I was looking for :-) But..

Not knowing the order of the alphabet is like not knowing the order of the numbers 0-9.

This is where I'm unsure. In relation to literacy, is not knowing the order of the alphabet as severe as not knowing the order of digits in numeracy?

It's hard to imagine not knowing the order of the alphabet, but I don't think it would impede most of my day to day speaking and reading, whereas not remembering the order of 0-9 would basically render my numeracy skills useless since digits are inherently ordinal whereas the order of the alphabet could be entirely different and still work (if we all agreed on the new order).

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#94

Post by joshkaufman » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 9:33 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #73

SandB0x wrote: post #20

Wait wait wait. I don't understand this. Unschooling simply seems to mean "being a good parent". Can someone explain the distinction? The Unschooling website doesn't help me either: "Unschooling is following your children's lead...Unschooling isn't a method of instruction, it's a different way of looking at learning..." Outside of school, my parents encouraged and helped me to learn interesting subjects, play musical…

Doesn't "unschooling" mean "unstructured homeschooling"? People who believe in unschooling generally aren't sending their kids to school at all. I think this might get tricky because "unschooling" is a new-ish term, and is pretty overtly trying to pick up steam as a "movement" or a "sensibility" or an "ethic" and is deliberately being inclusive; no doubt someone on HN is going to chime in and say they're an unschoole…

I think most people use "homeschooling" in the sense of re-creating a school environment at home - assignments, textbooks, tests, etc. At least one of the parents is expected to take on the role of the teacher, with all that implies.

"Unschooling" does away with most of the conventions of traditional schooling, and tries to give kids as much freedom as possible to explore and learn on their own, under the assumption that kids learn better that way.

There may be more or less structure involved, at the discretion of the parents, but the parent is more of a facilitator and less of an teacher. The theory is that the trappings of school get in the way of actual learning, so unschooling tries to remove as many unnecessary obstacles as possible.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#95

Post by joshkaufman » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 9:51 PM UTC

lotharbot wrote: post #91

joshkaufman wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part do you think is an unfair characterization - that some parents prefer to isolate their children for religious/moral reasons, or that doing so can lead to social awkwardness? According to a 2001 U.S. Census survey, 33% of homeschooling households cited religion as a factor in their choice, 14% objected to what the school teaches (i.e things like evolution), and 9% cited morality. (See data at http://www.cens…

> "That means 51.1% of homeschooling parents in the US think their kids would get a better education at school" No, that's not what it means. It means 48.9% thinks "better education" is their main reason for homeschooling. For the other 51.1%, "better education" is not the main reason, but may still be on the list. It's true that a non-trivial percentage want to isolate their children from the mainstream, but please…

That was what I thought at first too, until I double-checked the study. If you look at the data here (http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053/...), the cumulative percentage is 214.2%. That means it wasn't a "multiple choice, pick one" question - it was a "mark one or more reasons" question.

That means that 51.1% of parents surveyed did not mark "quality of education" as a reason they chose to homeschool - it was on the list as an option they could have marked, and they chose not to pick it. That's pretty telling, IMO.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#96

Post by tptacek » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 10:00 PM UTC

joshkaufman wrote: post #94

tptacek wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't "unschooling" mean "unstructured homeschooling"? People who believe in unschooling generally aren't sending their kids to school at all. I think this might get tricky because "unschooling" is a new-ish term, and is pretty overtly trying to pick up steam as a "movement" or a "sensibility" or an "ethic" and is deliberately being inclusive; no doubt someone on HN is going to chime in and say they're an unschoole…

I think most people use "homeschooling" in the sense of re-creating a school environment at home - assignments, textbooks, tests, etc. At least one of the parents is expected to take on the role of the teacher, with all that implies. "Unschooling" does away with most of the conventions of traditional schooling, and tries to give kids as much freedom as possible to explore and learn on their own, under the assumption…

Yeah I believe you and I'm sure this is all great (as a parent of 2 school-aged handfulls, "good luck with that", as they say).

My point is just that unschoolers aren't sending their kids to a big brick building full of professional teachers.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#97

Post by jerf » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 10:00 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #92

jerf wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the absolute biggest hurdle that homeschooling faces is that people always compare it against the Platonic ideal of schooling. You know what? I'd send my kid to the Platonic ideal of a school, no problem. But no such thing exists. Instead we must compare real schools to homeschooling. Yes, the same real schools that feature in the news for their sinking curriculum, over medicating, lowering standards, increas…

The reverse also applies: a lot of parents won't consider homeschooling their kids because they're not remotely suited to educating their kids and unfortunately many parents that do homeschool their kids have some pretty funny ideas about education. Being placed into a group of peers (some of whom you wouldn't voluntarily associate with) in a structured environment with people telling you what do do sounds like a pre…

"The reverse also applies"

Absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I am happy to engage in fair discussions of the tradeoffs between real schools and real homeschooling. I'm also happy to discuss the tradeoffs between what schools can become in the next 20 years with technology vs. what homeschooling can become with technology in the next 20 years, which I believe leads pretty inexorably to a mix-and-match situation. I only regret that my children will at best pick up the tail end of that transformation since entrenched interests will be holding back schools as hard as possible over the next ten years.

I'm objecting, in both directions, to holding up an ideal on one side and a strawman on the other.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#98

Post by slvrspoon » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 10:10 PM UTC

joshkaufman wrote: post #10

My wife and I are expecting in December, and we're planning on some variation of unschooling for our children, starting at an early age. Based on the research we've done, it's a straightforward way to get better educational results for your kids if done properly. We're planning on some variation of the "Robinson Curriculum" ( http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/ ), which in essence is a simple daily structure of (1) a…

As tommynazareth commented, the socialization in schools is mostly negative....

REALLY?

I beg and plead with anyone having kids to really examine this statement. The vast majority of interactions we have are social. Our social communication is literally key to survival. Of course much of the learning here that kids do could be percieved as negative "teasing, bullying" etc. but it's absolutely essential to becoming a fucntional adult... an adult that WILL BE HAPPILY EFFECTIVE in the tribe of humanity they live amongst.

Any parent not savvy about the incredible level of real life social networking literally essential to happiness is simply creating a huge hurdle for their offspring, not helping them test out of high school exams faster.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions hackers.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#99

Post by sp332 » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 10:12 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #93

sp332 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A binary search on a sorted list can only work if you know whether the item you're looking for is earlier or later in the sequence. Not knowing the order of the alphabet is like not knowing the order of the numbers 0-9. You have to fall back to a linear search, which is prohibitively slow for many day-to-day operations.

Appreciate the point in the first sentence; that's just what I was looking for :-) But.. Not knowing the order of the alphabet is like not knowing the order of the numbers 0-9. This is where I'm unsure. In relation to literacy, is not knowing the order of the alphabet as severe as not knowing the order of digits in numeracy? It's hard to imagine not knowing the order of the alphabet, but I don't think it would impede…

Nope, that comment was purely in the context of sorting. I doubt it would have much impact on literacy.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#100

Post by bugsy » Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 10:14 PM UTC

SandB0x wrote: post #20

Wait wait wait. I don't understand this. Unschooling simply seems to mean "being a good parent". Can someone explain the distinction? The Unschooling website doesn't help me either: "Unschooling is following your children's lead...Unschooling isn't a method of instruction, it's a different way of looking at learning..." Outside of school, my parents encouraged and helped me to learn interesting subjects, play musical…

SandB0x, what you describe with your father, his encouraging you to follow your interests and providing materials and support as requested, is indeed what the most common sort of unschooling is like.

Now imagine that you are doing that rather than attending an institution, and also your father is not worried about you having to cover any particular subjects at all because he knows that eventually your natural interests will branch effortlessly into all needed fields of knowledge and skills.

And then imagine, that after 10 years of this you apply to the college of your choice, get in easily, and ace all your classes because you already know what it is to be a self directed learner. Or perhaps rather than go to college, you start your own business, or maybe you move to China to teach English. One thing you probably aren't interested in though is working for a corporation and being told what to do every day without questioning, which is what traditional schooling would have tried to indoctrinate you to accept.