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Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#61

Post by jeromec »

petercooper wrote: post #47
jeromec wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devils advocate: there are obviously a lot of people that write programming code here. That is something created within each person's mind, and brought into existence -- just like a song. How would any of us view having our computers hacked into at the leisure of would-be users of our programs who sought to copy our code and then use it? Would we view this as theft?

It depends on the jurisdiction but other crimes are defined as taking place in such a system, such as trespass, gaining unauthorized access to a computer system, copyright infringement, and invasion of privacy. These things can be considered, in some cases, to be even more severe than theft. "Theft" is a highly charged word even though copying source code from a nuclear missile silo would be punished more severely th…

Here I don't mean to focus on the methods to get the finished product, but rather copying the product for use. The OP explains that since nothing is actually removed it's not theft. I disagree. If I want to open source some of the code I write, I'll do it. Aside from that no one should be able to copy and use the code I've written (and open it up to possible distribution) without any regard for my opinion on the matter. To me I'd consider that theft.

Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#62

Post by wildjim »

jrockway wrote: post #51
tptacek wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so you know where I'm coming from: I actually think what you'd doing is a form of theft. I don't think the word is inappropriate. You are free to disagree. I think many objections to the word "theft" in this context are reasonable, even I don't agree with them. But I am genuinely amused that people expect political correctness from people whose livelihoods they are probably disrupting unlawfully. (I chose my wor…

If you're someone who makes copyable content for profit, it's best to think of purchase rate instead of piracy rate. You make as much money from someone who pirates your Cocoa app as from someone who uses Linux. But the Linux users aren't "stealing" your revenue. Anyway, I wrote a book. It ended up on Scribd, Google Books, and the Pirate Bay. I still made plenty of money. Could I have made more? Maybe, maybe not. I c…

What's interesting is that iTunes would never have existed if not for MP3 downloads, but also because of Napster-style ease-of-access to a large catalogue of music.

This popularity seems to have been the big catalyst for trolls trying to make a buck, which means the whole blasted thing is deeply mired in a lot of people's long-term interests.

To me, this means the whole thing is going to be completely lacking a sensible view for decades -- both POV's that support "in the public good" (e.g. being able to use excerpts of copyrighted material for publication/research/etc, make digital backups of your property) as well as being compensated for the service (e.g. selling copies of your music to pay the bills so you can write more songs).

Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#63

Post by tsuraan »

tptacek wrote: post #57
jrockway wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're someone who makes copyable content for profit, it's best to think of purchase rate instead of piracy rate. You make as much money from someone who pirates your Cocoa app as from someone who uses Linux. But the Linux users aren't "stealing" your revenue. Anyway, I wrote a book. It ended up on Scribd, Google Books, and the Pirate Bay. I still made plenty of money. Could I have made more? Maybe, maybe not. I c…

So basically your argument is that when people like something, even if it's trivial for them to pirate it, they'll pay. Yeah, I respectfully call bullshit on that.

How can you call bullshit on the notion of people paying when they can pirate instead? Everybody's aware of file sharing at this point, and nearly everybody has internet access. Somehow, the content control industry keeps getting money, mostly from sales of their content. What is your explanation, if it isn't that people pay for stuff they like despite free options?

Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#64

Post by kemiller »

tptacek wrote: post #18
byoung2 wrote: post #15

I hate it when people equate piracy with theft...it's copyright infringement, not theft. If someone breaks into my car and steals my iPod, that's theft. I, the original owner, no longer possess the item. If instead the "thief" breaks into my car and copies all of the music from my iPod (let's say that all of the songs are recordings of my band to make things simple) and posts it on several torrent trackers, that's pi…

I love it that people who simply take anything sold under terms they disagree with also demand political correctness from the rest of the world and, particularly, from the industries who they're taking things from.

Activities that are actually theft do not require this little semantic pas de deux every time they come up.

Sort of like how anything that is actually a science doesn't need to include the word in its name.

Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#65

Post by petercooper »

jeromec wrote: post #61
petercooper wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the jurisdiction but other crimes are defined as taking place in such a system, such as trespass, gaining unauthorized access to a computer system, copyright infringement, and invasion of privacy. These things can be considered, in some cases, to be even more severe than theft. "Theft" is a highly charged word even though copying source code from a nuclear missile silo would be punished more severely th…

Here I don't mean to focus on the methods to get the finished product, but rather copying the product for use. The OP explains that since nothing is actually removed it's not theft. I disagree. If I want to open source some of the code I write, I'll do it. Aside from that no one should be able to copy and use the code I've written (and open it up to possible distribution) without any regard for my opinion on the matt…

The OP explains that since nothing is actually removed it's not theft. I disagree.

It depends whether you're referring to your own personal definition of "theft" or a legal or common definition (of which there are many). If the former, no-one can quarrel with you, of course ;-)

If the latter, in some jurisdictions, permanent deprivation of property is required for "theft", so copying files would not count. Where permanent deprivation is not required and non-tangible property counts, then sure, it'd be theft.

Even forgetting the definition of theft, sure, no-one should be able to obtain and use your code without permission, but if they were to do so, it doesn't necessarily mean they have committed the legal offence of "theft." You are free to consider it such but legally it may not be such.

Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#66

Post by wildjim »

tvon wrote: post #41
byoung2 wrote: post #15

I hate it when people equate piracy with theft...it's copyright infringement, not theft. If someone breaks into my car and steals my iPod, that's theft. I, the original owner, no longer possess the item. If instead the "thief" breaks into my car and copies all of the music from my iPod (let's say that all of the songs are recordings of my band to make things simple) and posts it on several torrent trackers, that's pi…

> If someone breaks into my car and steals my iPod, that's theft. I, the original owner, no longer possess the item. Theft covers more than just the taking of physical property. You can steal an idea, for example.

That's just slang! You can't actually steal an idea!

Once someone has made it possible for the idea to be shared -- even if they wrote it down and locked it in their safe -- then the information is already potentially accessible!

Breaking-in to someone's home to steal the paper you wrote your idea on is explicitly the theft, and getting the idea written on it is a side-effect.

Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#67

Post by tptacek »

alextgordon wrote: post #58
tptacek wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so you know where I'm coming from: I actually think what you'd doing is a form of theft. I don't think the word is inappropriate. You are free to disagree. I think many objections to the word "theft" in this context are reasonable, even I don't agree with them. But I am genuinely amused that people expect political correctness from people whose livelihoods they are probably disrupting unlawfully. (I chose my wor…

It is especially interesting to hear this from a Cocoa developer, by the way, considering the rate at which Cocoa apps are pirated. (I'm not calling you a hypocrite; no, quite the opposite. "Suicidal" might be a better epithet here.) There's nothing I can do about piracy. The options are to either (a) treat it as the enemy and fight it or (b) accept the benefits it brings and write off the losses. Judging by the prog…

Personally, and I know I'm going out on a limb here, but I think you can help yourself by not socially norming piracy into a badge of geek cred. But then, I don't believe in the supposed benefits of piracy.

(Actually, piracy directly benefits my line of work, and nets some interesting intellectual challenges for me and my field, since it's driving plenty of businesses into the arms of DRM-style schemes. It will not surprise you to learn that I also believe the pirates are going to lose the technical battle over DRM in the long term, too. So, in behalf of everyone who enjoys writing kernel debuggers and hypervisors: thanks for the extra billable hours!)

Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#68

Post by tptacek »

tsuraan wrote: post #63
tptacek wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically your argument is that when people like something, even if it's trivial for them to pirate it, they'll pay. Yeah, I respectfully call bullshit on that.

How can you call bullshit on the notion of people paying when they can pirate instead? Everybody's aware of file sharing at this point, and nearly everybody has internet access. Somehow, the content control industry keeps getting money, mostly from sales of their content. What is your explanation, if it isn't that people pay for stuff they like despite free options?

You are drastically overestimating the technical acumen of the average buyer of online music. Most of the people buying music from iTunes are the same people writing 'patio11 support emails complaining that his bingo card generator broke their internet.

Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#69

Post by daten »

masklinn wrote: post #12
daten wrote: post #9

From the article: Locke then lamented the fate of songwriters. "Recently, I've had a chance to read letters from award winning writers and artists whose livelihoods have been destroyed by music piracy. One letter that stuck out for me was a guy who said the songwriting royalties he had depended on to 'be a golden parachute to fund his retirement had turned out to be a lead balloon.' This just isn't right." I don't be…

> I don't believe the assumption that every download is a lost sale is remotely true. They don't either.

I assumed the quoted song-writer does. I'm not sure how else he justifies not being able to retire from his work. He doesn't seam to be suggesting the quality of his work is to blame. I know quality and personal interest is the reason I don't purchase (or pirate) most popular American music.

Re: Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

#70

Post by tptacek »

kemiller wrote: post #64
tptacek wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love it that people who simply take anything sold under terms they disagree with also demand political correctness from the rest of the world and, particularly, from the industries who they're taking things from.

Activities that are actually theft do not require this little semantic pas de deux every time they come up. Sort of like how anything that is actually a science doesn't need to include the word in its name.

Yes, the semantic flaws in the content industry's criticism of file sharing are indeed a great injustice.
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