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Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

theguardian.com

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Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#191

Post by neuland »

NegativeK wrote: post #154
neuland wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the way things should work. But, there was a widely reported case recently where a man accused of possessing child pornography has been held in jail for a long time [0]. From what I can tell, he's been in jail for contempt of court for nearly 2 and a half years! [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/man-jailed-indef...

That's because the issue is more complicated than any absolute statements. One case decided that law enforcement can compel you to turn over documents that it knows you have possession of, regardless of where they exist. You're not testifying against yourself; you're turning over evidence. Another case has decided that they can't compel you to turn over a password so they can search for evidence.

That's true. Nothing is guaranteed. That's actually what I'm trying to say, too. Normally, 5A covers passwords. But it didn't in this case, because somehow the court was able to decide that this hard drive undeniably has CP on it.

So, it's not incriminating yourself to decrypt something everyone already knows you have. That's kinda weird and concerning, depending on how they proved the hard drive's contents without decrypting it. I mean, if it's just someone saying "I saw it on his computer" then that's problematic in my opinion. Whereas if they have server logs, or logs from a different hard drive of his detailing the contents of the encrypted drive, or something more concrete than hearsay, I don't see an issue.

Edit: I guess the issue is: why do they need the contents of the drive if they can already prove the contents of the drive enough to convict?

Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#192

Post by AlexCoventry »

DanBC wrote: post #175
AlexCoventry wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> easily detect hidden partitions. Even hidden volumes in encrypted partitions? Has that feature of VeraCrypt been cracked? https://www.veracrypt.fr/en/Hidden%20Volume.html

It's a big bunch of random noise. Of course it's trivially easy to see the drive image is not like other drive images, which is all they're looking for. Go to jail until you hand over the passphrase.

Hidden volumes, though, enable you to place what theoretically appears to be a big bunch of random noise (unless you know the key) in an even bigger bunch of random noise with a legitimate, demonstrable purpose (an encrypted volume.)

Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#193

Post by codezero »

lisper wrote: post #166
codezero wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this provide a layer of security outside of say, adding a strong password to your phone and keeping it powered off, assuming my phone's data is encrypted?

Yes. It provides protection against monkey wrench attacks. https://xkcd.com/538/ Of course the TSA is not so unsubtle as to actually hit you with a wrench, but they have other ways of making your life miserable.

How? They can also plug your usb drive in and say, “unlock it or else wrench...”

Maybe I’m being obtuse but can you explain how it protects against a wrench attack?

Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#194

Post by KMag »

NegativeK wrote: post #154
neuland wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the way things should work. But, there was a widely reported case recently where a man accused of possessing child pornography has been held in jail for a long time [0]. From what I can tell, he's been in jail for contempt of court for nearly 2 and a half years! [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/man-jailed-indef...

That's because the issue is more complicated than any absolute statements. One case decided that law enforcement can compel you to turn over documents that it knows you have possession of, regardless of where they exist. You're not testifying against yourself; you're turning over evidence. Another case has decided that they can't compel you to turn over a password so they can search for evidence.

> can compel you to turn over documents that it knows you have possession of,

The only way to positively know that one has possession of the documents in question is to read them. If they need someone's help to decrypt the documents, then they at best have a very strong suspicion/circumstantial evidence of possession.

Even if they intercepted transmission of the documents in question, they don't know if the documents are still in possession or have been deleted until they've gotten the suspect to cooperate and decrypt all of the suspected documents.

If one had a hidden encrypted partition filled only with copies of the U.S. bill of rights, and the government used sworn testimony of definite knowledge that the hidden partition contained contraband in order to force disclosure of decryption keys, what's the likelihood that a good lawyer could get enough damages out of the government to make it worthwhile to sit in detention for a month or two while things got sorted out?

Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#195

Post by colejohnson66 »

codezero wrote: post #193
lisper wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It provides protection against monkey wrench attacks. https://xkcd.com/538/ Of course the TSA is not so unsubtle as to actually hit you with a wrench, but they have other ways of making your life miserable.

How? They can also plug your usb drive in and say, “unlock it or else wrench...” Maybe I’m being obtuse but can you explain how it protects against a wrench attack?

Preventing you from boarding your plane for starters

Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#196

Post by snowwrestler »

reaperducer wrote: post #54
mikeash wrote: post #35

This article seems like it’s written to be deliberately confusing. If I understand it correctly, the TSA is not forcing anyone to unlock devices. They take the devices away for some period, but if they’re securely locked, TSA won’t be able to get anything from them. However, the article drops border searches which do require an unlock right into the middle of the article, then goes on to say that they have no specifi…

> They take the devices away for some period, but if they’re securely locked, TSA won’t be able to get anything from them. It is well documented that there is no cell phone that cannot be unlocked. And once it's unlocked, who knows what the real goal is. On the surface, one suspects that it's to examine its contents. But other possibilities include sideloading spyware, or even targeted viruses. Some random NGO secret…

> It is well documented that there is no cell phone that cannot be unlocked.

Ok, probably true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that any unlock can happen quickly, or that the TSA has that capability broadly deployed to agents, or that the TSA even wants to unlock devices.

Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#197

Post by marshray »

pdkl95 wrote: post #176
iwalsh wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the same requirement isn't generally understood to hold in these circumstances. For example, the 9th circuit court of appeals in U.S. vs Davis[1] held that airport searches are "administrative searches" and are permissible in much broader ways than searches while being arrested. [1] http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2005/06/07/04...

From the section [7] of the conclusion (your link, last page): > The procedure is geared towards detection and deterrence of airborne terrorism [...] This was a limited search, confined in its intrusiveness (both in duration and scope) and in its attempt to discover weapons and explosives.³ > ³This would, perhaps, be a different case if there were improper motives established by the record below or argued in the brie…

I'm sure they would reply with some number of times that evidence of evil was found by a laptop search (in completely unrelated circumstances).

Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#198

Post by marshray »

AlexCoventry wrote: post #192
DanBC wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a big bunch of random noise. Of course it's trivially easy to see the drive image is not like other drive images, which is all they're looking for. Go to jail until you hand over the passphrase.

Hidden volumes, though, enable you to place what theoretically appears to be a big bunch of random noise (unless you know the key) in an even bigger bunch of random noise with a legitimate, demonstrable purpose (an encrypted volume.)

Would you seriously attempt to convince US government agents that your 512 GB hard drive contains only a 256 GB filesystem because you're a random noise enthusiast?

Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#199

Post by snowwrestler »

mcherm wrote: post #89
ajross wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, are you equating needless bureaucratic red tape in a non-profit's application for tax-exempt status to the seizure of a private citizen's phone and laptop?

Sorry, are you equating a private citizen having their phone out of their sight for 10 minutes with over a year of delays in permitting an organization to accept tax-exempt donations from thousands of citizens? Frankly, BOTH are unreasonable and the government should not be engaging in EITHER ONE. I think there is little to be gained by debating which is "worse" -- could we instead agree to cease doing both?

"Tax-exempt" status is completely invented by the government, and carries no natural or Constitutional rights.

Being secure in your personal effects is a natural right and protected by the 4th Amendment.

Re: Questions for TSA after reports of laptop and phone searches on domestic flights

#200

Post by paxunix »

jMyles wrote: post #11

Domestic flights? Wow. Since this is a different agency than typically conducts (similarly intrusive and seemingly illegal) searches in the case of international flights, I wonder if they are following a common protocol? If so, who creates that? I'm about to fly internationally for the first time in a while; anybody have any advice on how to handle my devices?

Are you a white, casually-dressed male with an American-sounding name? If so, it is very unlikely your devices will be scrutinized at all. Outside of that, the probability increases (sometimes by a lot). Hacker News likes to see the long arm of the law reaching into their personal lives where it almost never does. This isn't to say we should like--nor even tolerate--when it does, but you can probably just pack all your usual travel items as you normally would for a domestic flight, and simply be on your way, unmolested.

Are you trying to bring 3 phones, 2 laptops, a tablet, 4 chargers, and assorted other electronics with you? Be prepared for the long arm to reach into your life because you're attracting suspicion. You would be attracting suspicion even without the current political climate, because that much equipment is outside the bounds of normal for your average traveller.

Be an average traveller and no one will give you a second glance.

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