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Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

fortune.com

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Re: Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

#121

Post by UrukParthian »

mikeash wrote: post #117
UrukParthian wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost like politicians manage their perception and image in strategic ways where they lull their enemies into being emotionally caught up with minor character flaws rather than the tactics and orientation of their actions. The smugness of people against Trump is even more worse than the smugness people had against George W. They're not idiots. They're sharks who have a very clear aptitude at manipulating people…

I agree with you when it comes to most politicians, but I’m pretty sure Trump is actually dumb. He’s the only person I’ve ever seen contradict himself three times in a single sentence. When he speaks, he almost never displays any indication that there’s any understanding of the subject at hand. W had a superficial dumbness that was largely cultivated. Beneath that he had at least a basic understanding of the issues.

Do you think he cares about you the coherence of his statements when they provoke a strong emotional reaction from a dumb population addicted to emotionally reacting and addicted to signaling alliegence to some vague social grouping?

You're taking his bait superbly by thinking that the truth wins you the game of democracy. To call him "dumb" is to severely underestimate the strategies potential president have used in their rise to power. Or in other words, did calling him an idiot get your side any concessions, any retaken ground?

Instead of taking Trump's bait, I'd highly recommend reading Robert Caro's books on Lyndon B. Johnson. You'll never look at politics the same way again.

Re: Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

#122

Post by mikeash »

UrukParthian wrote: post #121
mikeash wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you when it comes to most politicians, but I’m pretty sure Trump is actually dumb. He’s the only person I’ve ever seen contradict himself three times in a single sentence. When he speaks, he almost never displays any indication that there’s any understanding of the subject at hand. W had a superficial dumbness that was largely cultivated. Beneath that he had at least a basic understanding of the issues.

Do you think he cares about you the coherence of his statements when they provoke a strong emotional reaction from a dumb population addicted to emotionally reacting and addicted to signaling alliegence to some vague social grouping? You're taking his bait superbly by thinking that the truth wins you the game of democracy. To call him "dumb" is to severely underestimate the strategies potential president have used in…

Are you under the impression that I’m calling him “dumb” as some sort of political strategy? I’m just describing the facts as I see them. Pointing out that it works for him is not any sort of argument against what I’m saying.

Of course his dumbness has appeal. That’s why he won. That doesn’t mean he’s not an idiot.

Re: Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

#123

Post by UrukParthian »

mikeash wrote: post #122
UrukParthian wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think he cares about you the coherence of his statements when they provoke a strong emotional reaction from a dumb population addicted to emotionally reacting and addicted to signaling alliegence to some vague social grouping? You're taking his bait superbly by thinking that the truth wins you the game of democracy. To call him "dumb" is to severely underestimate the strategies potential president have used in…

Are you under the impression that I’m calling him “dumb” as some sort of political strategy? I’m just describing the facts as I see them. Pointing out that it works for him is not any sort of argument against what I’m saying. Of course his dumbness has appeal. That’s why he won. That doesn’t mean he’s not an idiot.

Your facts is what he says to the public. That's not a "fact", that's taking politics at face value. I told you, such men are sharks. Not merely the men you back on your own political aisle.

I told you to read Robert Caro's series on Lyndon B.Johnson because it opens your eyes to the political process. Do you think Johnson campaigned as a Roosevelt man because he liked Roosevelt? Hell no, he was an opportunist.

Re: Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

#124

Post by mikeash »

UrukParthian wrote: post #123
mikeash wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you under the impression that I’m calling him “dumb” as some sort of political strategy? I’m just describing the facts as I see them. Pointing out that it works for him is not any sort of argument against what I’m saying. Of course his dumbness has appeal. That’s why he won. That doesn’t mean he’s not an idiot.

Your facts is what he says to the public. That's not a "fact", that's taking politics at face value. I told you, such men are sharks. Not merely the men you back on your own political aisle. I told you to read Robert Caro's series on Lyndon B.Johnson because it opens your eyes to the political process. Do you think Johnson campaigned as a Roosevelt man because he liked Roosevelt? Hell no, he was an opportunist.

I still don’t get what about this is supposed to contradict what I’ve said. And there’s plenty of evidence for Trump’s idiocy from stuff that wasn’t supposed to be public.

Re: Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

#125

Post by csallen »

tinokid wrote: post #120
csallen wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is "concerned" about the convict's reputation and future employability. You are misreading people's statements and thus misunderstanding their points. Namely, that the justice system serves a greater purpose than simply making you and me feel better and causing harm to perpetrators. What point is there in discussing the so-obvious-it-goes-without-saying good-bad polarity of this situation? If we myopically giv…

You're missing the point because you don't understand the gravity of the crime. A minimum wage fast food worker is constantly observed by a phalanx of cameras that will incriminate her should she attempt to steal five dollars from the till, but a surgeon in an operating room performs an infinitely more consequential task with nary a recording device in sight. Why? The immense trust and responsibility invested by soci…

I'm just not sure what you're responding to. Is anyone here saying or even implying that four years is cruel? Is anyone feeling sorry for the doctor?

Re: Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

#126

Post by tinokid »

csallen wrote: post #125
tinokid wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point because you don't understand the gravity of the crime. A minimum wage fast food worker is constantly observed by a phalanx of cameras that will incriminate her should she attempt to steal five dollars from the till, but a surgeon in an operating room performs an infinitely more consequential task with nary a recording device in sight. Why? The immense trust and responsibility invested by soci…

I'm just not sure what you're responding to. Is anyone here saying or even implying that four years is cruel? Is anyone feeling sorry for the doctor?

Well you yourself said it reflected the same kind of "emotional thinking" that led to millennia of "torture and abuse". What I am trying to show is that there are plenty of good reasons for this kind of punishment (whether or not one accepts a retributive component to justice). It is not simply a knee jerk insensitive reaction.

Re: Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

#127

Post by csallen »

tinokid wrote: post #126
csallen wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just not sure what you're responding to. Is anyone here saying or even implying that four years is cruel? Is anyone feeling sorry for the doctor?

Well you yourself said it reflected the same kind of "emotional thinking" that led to millennia of "torture and abuse". What I am trying to show is that there are plenty of good reasons for this kind of punishment (whether or not one accepts a retributive component to justice). It is not simply a knee jerk insensitive reaction.

I never complained about the punishment, nor did I equate the punishment itself to emotional thinking. What I called emotional and dangerous was the unsupported claim that the punishment wasn't enough to be an effective deterrent and should therefore be increased.

Re: Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

#128

Post by tinokid »

csallen wrote: post #127
tinokid wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you yourself said it reflected the same kind of "emotional thinking" that led to millennia of "torture and abuse". What I am trying to show is that there are plenty of good reasons for this kind of punishment (whether or not one accepts a retributive component to justice). It is not simply a knee jerk insensitive reaction.

I never complained about the punishment, nor did I equate the punishment itself to emotional thinking. What I called emotional and dangerous was the unsupported claim that the punishment wasn't enough to be an effective deterrent and should therefore be increased.

And that is the claim I was contesting. You seem to have an odd intuition that a line of argument that does not reduce to a computing problem is "emotional". Even if one does not believe in retributive justice at all, an adequate deterrent is still going to be in proportion to the seriousness of the crime. It's not something that admits of a resolution by facts and figures alone.

Re: Doctor Gets 4 Years in Prison for Insys Opioid Kickbacks

#129

Post by csallen »

tinokid wrote: post #128
csallen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never complained about the punishment, nor did I equate the punishment itself to emotional thinking. What I called emotional and dangerous was the unsupported claim that the punishment wasn't enough to be an effective deterrent and should therefore be increased.

And that is the claim I was contesting. You seem to have an odd intuition that a line of argument that does not reduce to a computing problem is "emotional". Even if one does not believe in retributive justice at all, an adequate deterrent is still going to be in proportion to the seriousness of the crime . It's not something that admits of a resolution by facts and figures alone.

What you are saying here is an order of magnitude milder in its certitude than koolba's assertion that the given punishment was "hardly a deterrent" and "barely a slap on the wrist." In addition, you are comparing this doctor's punishment to the seriousness of this doctor's crime, whereas the koolba unreasonably compared this doctor's punishment to the sum total of the harm caused by an entire epidemic of which this doctor played only a negligible part.

So yes, I stand by my claim that the original poster's point was an emotional reaction.

Had koolba instead said something like, "An adequate deterrent should be in proportion to the crime committed, and I believe 4 years in prison falls below that standard for reasons X, Y, and Z," then I would not have called that a knee-jerk emotional reaction. But he didn't.

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