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Intel Fights for Its Future

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181–190 of 198 posts

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#181

This article makes it seem that being a major player in mobile is the only way Intel could survive. Mobile is a decelerating market, while cloud and servers, where Intel has a huge lead is an expanding market and profitable. In 2017, Intel's revenue hit an all-time high, as it did the year before, and its stock is an all time high. This is not a company "fighting for its future."

Yes And I guess only time will tell. If we travel back in time, and told Paul Otellini that Apple is going to make 100 to 200M chip a year with Intel, going for prices less then $30 per unit. Would Otellini have said yes? For some reason I doubt it. When there was no transformation of Smartphone to the industry, and saw importance of PC shrinks in his own eyes.

Purely looking at those numbers. For the same amount of transistor @$30, Intel were selling those at anywhere between $80 to $300. Not to mention Intel has to invest in Fabs just for Apple as 100 - 200M is no small numbers.

Intel cares about its margin, and its profitability. Sometimes we argue we should do things at lower margin to avoid the risk of being wiped out. Sometimes vice versa.

I am not entirely sure what Intel's exec were thinking, they were possibly driven out of Apple and Mobile decision because of fear of shareholders protest at lowering margins, and driven back to Mobile precisely because of shareholders.

And not only is Intel late to Mobile. They were late to GPU as well, and GPGPU in general. We are now looking at 2020 before an dGPU from Intel is out.

Basically Intel hasn't been innovating for a few years. And may be they haven't been to war for a long time. They loses the sense of danger. May be they were typical Silicon Valley's optimist where everything is going to be fine.

Which strangely is different to Andy Grove, only paranoid survives.

But then I dont see x86 ever lose out in PC or Datacenter Market. Right now the biggest threat is AMD, and that is not an existential threat.

I also dont see how Broadcom and Qualcomm merge would be an existential threat to Intel. Apple might not use Intel's modem, but that is not exactly a problem. Intel needed some customers to use its product so it could at least cover the R&D cost of modem, which is getting insanely complicated. And Mobile Network has already reached an inflection point where Modem aren't going to get the rapid development and improvement as we had in the last 10 years.

With iPhone, we manage to move from End of 2G to 3G to 4G and now to 5G. All within 10 years. We have reached a stage where Top Speed no longer sales. Market wants more data, or higher capacity rather then unattainable top 1Gbps speed. We have Massive MIMO and LAA, and in the next 5 years we will see anywhere from 4x to 20x capacity improvement, along with better reception. All these improvement are now bottlenecked by Carrier upgrading their sites, assuming we have a steady rate of mobile phones upgrade.

Intel has a clear market of 1.5 Billion PC to upgrade to, while not everyone will be upgrading their PC with Modem. It is by no means a small market. And Apple has their own W2 with 802.11n and Bluetooth 4.1. It is only a matter of time before they have their own 802.11ac and Bluetooth 5, as well as possible 802.11ax. All these are currently coming from Broadcom. I am much more worried about Broadcom then Intel.

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#182
post #167
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even native languages close to the metal (Ada, Pascal, Basic, ...) don't have any big issue switching processors, unless inline Assembly is used. C and its derivatives (C++ and Objective-C) are the outliers thanks to implementation defined numeric types, the abuse in pointer tricks and casts.

I once had to help port a large system written in Ada from SPARC/Solaris to x64/RHEL. The only issues we rant into were predominately related to the endian difference between the two architectures, and that was really only due to the fact that our code did a lot of low-level bit manipulation :)

And ARM is little endian in all currently deployed processors.

So about only pitfall is assembler, SIMD intrinsics and depending on undefined behaviour like arithmetic or not signed right shift. Oh and different thread safety guarantees. ARM is much more lax with loads and stores and will require locking and correct use of atomic operations.

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but the upgrade cycle won't stay short for long, just like it hasn't for desktops. Give it 10 years and people will be keeping their phones until they break. Also anyone can make an ARM CPU so the margins are thin, whereas with x86 CPUs Intel will basically only ever have one competitor - AMD. They want to find another monopoly.

Even today I see an increasing number of friends moving from 2 years cycles to 3 year cycles. The "killer app" for smartphone refresh rates staying low are (1) battery degradation and (2) forced OS updates for app updates, which in turn slows the phone down to compel an update[1]. [1] I'm actually curious if OS updates slow down older phones these days. This was the case 5 years ago but perhaps things have changed/

I've been doing a variant of the 3 year cycle: buy a year old model (e.g. I bought an S7 just after the S8 came out), and then keep it for 2 years (it's even possible I'll be able to keep this one longer. It's not feeling slow yet).

Advantage is that you buy for half the price of a new flagship.

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#184
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

intel is just fine. spectre and meltdown were blown way out of proportion. almost every CPU to date has had similar vectors to exploit them or worse. if intelligence agencies don't know this they have shitty assurance and should get better. most agencies for high integrety systems wont have been using intel/amd as there are cpus out there (ibm for example) which offer much better assurance with regards to memory inte…

I don't see how Spectre and meltdown were blown way out of proportion? Google and Amazon seem to have treated them quite seriously.. Maybe they should have just closed their eyes. The solution to Spectre right now is "Don't do speculative execution". Meltdown exploits a pretty embarrassing bug in the hardware. One has to wonder how it got through all of the testing/review that must happen before a new design is sent…

Most people who run servers aren't cloud hosts, so they're not running untrusted code on their servers in the first place, making Spectre/Meltdown pretty much a non-issue.

These sorts of issues were discovered a decade ago when speculative execution first hit the scene, we just never had a practical exploit (in public knowledge anyway) until recently, and even then it really isn't that bad despite all the security apocalypticists shouting that the end was nigh.

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#185

Speaking of Intel failing to innovate, has anyone seen Intel's 10nm process? Canon Lake was supposed to be out in 2016 and it has now been pushed back to mid-2018. There was a super brief update about it at CES [1]. Makes one wonder if the future is not arriving on-time as previously expected. [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/12271/intel-mentions-10nm-bri...

10nm is facing acute yield issues, rumoured to be because of the use of cobalt.

I am surprised at the under-reporting of this issue. We are literally on the brink of a serious chip technology stagnation which could cause a dead stop to moore's law and very few people are concerned.

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but the upgrade cycle won't stay short for long, just like it hasn't for desktops. Give it 10 years and people will be keeping their phones until they break. Also anyone can make an ARM CPU so the margins are thin, whereas with x86 CPUs Intel will basically only ever have one competitor - AMD. They want to find another monopoly.

How many times have you had to replace a PC because you dropped it, left it in a cab, etc.? I haven't broken a phone yet, but I doubt I could keep using a phone for 10 years anytime soon.

Phone: 1 (dropped; screen broke but I was able to repair it)

Laptop: 1 (spilt wine on it, was not able to repair it)

I agree for desktops, but laptops regularly get broken and stolen.

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#187
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that very dependent on the target demographic and country. Also definitely some delusion in it too, many people I know will go on about planned obsolescence and so forth in a put the world to right speech and then whip out the latest iPhone or Samsung flagship to call an Uber that they have on contract. Intel gave up too early in my opinion, the Zenfones (pre-Snapdragon) were great phones, I just don't think…

What was the difference between Zenfones pre-Snapdragon and post?

The Intel CPUs were performance-competitive with the SD8xx chips at the time but most of the newer zenfones use slower SD6xx chips.

My experience with the Zenfone 2 was not very positive though. It seems to have been more Asus's fault than Intel's, but also Intel could have done a better job with their kernel. Yes the CPU was fast relative to its price (because Intel was dumping them) but almost everything else about it was not very good. Battery life was poor, seemingly because Intel never got core parking to work in their Android kernel (I also owned a Lenovo Atom tablet which had the exact same problem so I'm going to blame Intel here). Most apps ran pretty fast but anything with ARM binaries ran very slowly in emulation or in a few cases didn't work at all. ASUS's Android skin was terrible and had an obscene amount of preinstalled bloatware. There were loads of bugs, and installing updates was always a guessing game of whether it improved things or made it even worse. Sometimes GPS wouldn't work. The Marshmallow update was both extremely late and extremely buggy. The plastic back started developing cracks after about a year without ever dropping it.

The ability to run windows software in either Wine or a VM was a rather cool-but-useless novelty.

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#188
post #34
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I must say I chuckled a bit when I saw the headline. Intel is still churning out 63% gross margins. On semiconductors. That is exceptional. Intel is not fighting for its life by any stretch of the imagination.

Intel is fine as long as ARM doesn’t compete in their core markets. Then it’s a sudden and violent change. I guess you don’t see ARM attaining parity with x86?

I guess it depends for what sort of compute. For a heavy monolythic computation isn’t CISC a structurally faster approach? For lots of cheap, low wattage micro-services/containers I could see ARM being more efficient/cheaper.

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#189
Has Intel experienced some kind of strategic brain drain in the past 5 years? I remember a professor telling me in the late 90's about how RISC wasn't going to dominate the future, because Intel had a roadmap going well into the 2000's specifying how they were going to stay ahead. Now, it looks like AMD has the strategic upper hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucMQermB9wQ

Re: Intel Fights for Its Future

#190

There are always missed opportunities in any business. Intel did not capture the mobile market, so what? There is no evidence that ARM-based servers from Qualcomm, or anyone else for that matter, will somehow make a dent in Intel's leadership in that space in the short to mid term. Not to mention that Intel has significantly diversified its product line and will continue to do so. There is not a world where there wil…

I think you missed the point. It's fine to disagree, but your comments indicate that you don't understand or appreciate the magnitude of Intel's hubris and the inevitable blunder that followed. Intel literally invented the microprocessor. The fact that they let this opportunity slip through their fingers is astonishing.
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