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Surprising Things About School

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Re: Surprising Things About School

#51
post #45
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Searching for relevant mentorship is a very very hard problem. I completely agree. As someone just reaching a bit over 3 years out of a bachelor's program, I had no one that I could talk to for a solid 20 years of my life about computers, let alone what I wanted to do. Like a bunch of people here, computers were my "thing" but no one around me seemed to take much interest in them. When it came time to go through th…

> I ended up railroaded onto a liberal arts education until I reached my community college, where I encountered people - not just professors - who knew that the magic hardware box could do other things besides send and receive email. True story: When I was in college, a girl came to me with a question: If she put Borland C++ on her laptop, could she compile programs on it just as easily as on her desktop? I replied t…

I was helping a math undergrad (senior, graduating with honors) from a top 50 university study for the actuarial exam. They were stuck on a question that amounted to "what's the volume of this circular cylinder?"

As I walked them through that, it dawned on me that the problem wasn't recalling or applying the formula, but that they had no idea what x = cos theta, y = sin theta, theta ranges 0 to 2*pi, z ranges 0 to 2 would graph. No idea and no idea how to even begin...

Re: Surprising Things About School

#52
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you measuring the same level of motivation? From my anecdotal experience, the people taking the "live, guided course" have committed to: - synchronous attendance at a particular time, probably at a particular place - probably a dollar investment - face-to-face contact with instructor - near-traditional learning environment People taking a MOOC have committed to: - browsing on an electronic device There's gene…

There have been quite a few studies that have done this in a scientific manner. Internally we have taken sets of students that apply to our free “mini code bootcamp” and sent half to an archived version published each night and send the other half a live link that becomes an archive each night. So we didn’t control scientifically, jsut an AB test, but the shift has been breathtaking. We can also take students that ar…

This Harvard study & Atlantic article by the study authors give the same 5% completion rate you cited, but give a completely opposite interpretation: basically, that the MOOC broadened access, allowing more people to get what they wanted out of the course.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/01/the-tr...

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2381263

"In these course[sic], “dropping out” is not a breach of expectations but the natural result of an open, free, and asynchronous registration process, where students get just as much as they wish out of a course and registering for a course does not imply a commitment to completing it."

...

Also the discussion of the "Colbert Bump", where increased publicity to less-motivated (just curious) students doubled completion but tripled registration (thus reducing completion rate).

Also the point about whether to allow or disallow registration after the course begins (late registrants are ineligible for certification, so they are automatically "failed").

"HarvardX could boost its certification rate by closing those courses to new registrants or restrict courses to those most likely to complete them. Instead, it keeps courses open to maximize the number of students who are learning something new."

I absolutely agree that (at least some) users can be helped by live instruction or supplemented online instruction, but I disagree that commonly cited, low completion rates measure students with the "same level of motivation".

Re: Surprising Things About School

#53
We’ve been reworked purely for extrinsic reward and forgotten how to learn entirely. The most frequently asked questions we get are “is this required?” and “donwe get a certificate for this?” It’s sad

If the students had their own projects that they were working on, would you know about it? Offhand I'd guess they have things they'd rather be working on than your assigned coursework, so if there's no benefit, why do it?

Re: Surprising Things About School

#54

"17. People rely mainly on their parents for advice on what to do about education, and that has to be among the worst places to go for educational advice" This one certainly hits me hard. With a mother who dropped out of university and a father who didn't go myself and my sister both have good degrees (she's a newly qualified Vet and I'm a startup's birth and death out of uni), and nowhere to get decent advice. I kno…

I started writing a comment to share my similar story of a blue-collar upbringing, but realised that other than a few chance encounters most of the relevant mentorship I have gotten was as a professional or read in articles/books. The best things I've learned in life through tough lessons - the trick is don't fail too hard. The important stuff I learned before graduating my bachelors was things like: 1) It's better t…

Small fish in a big pond? I've heard a completely opposite advice stating that "in a big pond" there's much competition, and dominating a small niche yields better results. What is the rationale behind being a small fish in a big pond?

Re: Surprising Things About School

#55
post #53

We’ve been reworked purely for extrinsic reward and forgotten how to learn entirely. The most frequently asked questions we get are “is this required?” and “donwe get a certificate for this?” It’s sad If the students had their own projects that they were working on, would you know about it? Offhand I'd guess they have things they'd rather be working on than your assigned coursework, so if there's no benefit, why do i…

See note 9.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started writing a comment to share my similar story of a blue-collar upbringing, but realised that other than a few chance encounters most of the relevant mentorship I have gotten was as a professional or read in articles/books. The best things I've learned in life through tough lessons - the trick is don't fail too hard. The important stuff I learned before graduating my bachelors was things like: 1) It's better t…

Small fish in a big pond? I've heard a completely opposite advice stating that "in a big pond" there's much competition, and dominating a small niche yields better results. What is the rationale behind being a small fish in a big pond?

I can't see how either choice could be always correct. A small pond can have great rewards, but also great risk. Like if it dries up totally.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#57
OP here, also happen to be a YC founder (S17 - https://lambdaschool.com). Shocked to see this on HN.

A lot of people are asking me about number 7:

> 7. We had one student on the edge of homelessness, was $400 short on bills and almost had to quit because of that. I personally loaned him the money, and his income moved from $10/hr to $70k+/yr. It only took $400, but he didn’t have anywhere to get that from. Insane.

We train people to be software engineers for free in exchange for a portion of their future income for two years (we only get paid if they make above a certain salary threshold doing what we train them to, otherwise we don't get paid). So as a school we focus on eliminating the risk and upfront cost to the student, which lets many brilliant people access a world-class education who otherwise might not afford to. We're also incentivized to make the perfect school that will cause you to be successful in your career, and those incentives make an enormous difference.

The average stats from our first classes are remarkable: our average student increased his or her annual income by over $40,000/yr, 50% were hired within weeks, and the median salary was $90,000, including a lot of low-cost-of-living areas.

Since we're paying for all the other costs of running a world-class school without upfront revenue (we're spending over $300,000/month all-in right now), we're not in the place to pay for living expenses as well, and currently students need to cover their own living expenses for six months. Usually they can live with family, some have part-time jobs, we do have a part-time program, etc. but it's never easy.

This kind of small discrepancy forcing people to quit is something we see all. the. time. I probably see a similar situation with different small dollar amounts weekly. There are times when I am fairly confident I can swing someone's future earning power by several million dollars, but I don't have the thousand dollars it takes to do that. It's incredibly frustrating.

We can partner with lending companies, but if they're paying for students' living expenses they also require students to pay their tuition upfront and be saddled with debt, which goes against our mission, and we think there has to be a better way.

I'm looking into raising some sort of non-profit, living-expenses-only fund/endowment to lend during these sorts of shortfalls, but I'm new to raising nonprofit dollars. If anyone has any suggestions I'm happy to hear them. I don't have a good sense of what the interest rates would need to be for this to work in a for-profit world, so we'll see.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got similar advice from my parents and followed it, somewhat bitterly. My dad regrets dropping out of college, but he also paid $400/semester for tuition, not $20,000 like I did. I feel like "any degree == $$$" was much more true in the 70s and 80s than it was when I graduated.

A much smaller fraction of the population earned a college degree 30-40 years ago so it was more of a differentiator. It's still pretty clear that a (4 year) degree changes access to jobs, I guess it's less clear that it will matter for a given person.

A 4-year still matters a lot. The issue is that a 4-year from a state school has almost as much value as a 4-year from an Ivy League. A prestigious university on your resume will open a few extra doors, but in most disciplines it’s just not worth the extra cost. The University of Washington is $5.5k/semester (resident tuition). If you’re spending 20k/semester, you better be getting a degree from somewhere very prestigious and you better have a plan to leverage the network you build there. Otherwise you’re just wasting ~90k on your 4-year degree.

And of course the less in demand your degree is, the more the math favors cheaper schools.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#59
post #55
post #53

We’ve been reworked purely for extrinsic reward and forgotten how to learn entirely. The most frequently asked questions we get are “is this required?” and “donwe get a certificate for this?” It’s sad If the students had their own projects that they were working on, would you know about it? Offhand I'd guess they have things they'd rather be working on than your assigned coursework, so if there's no benefit, why do i…

See note 9.

Note 9 is why I gave up trying to mentor developers.

Relevant background: I've held a career that is a dream of high profile projects: game studio owner at age 17, beta developer for original Mac in '83; on Mandelbrot & DeVanney's original Fractal research team, 3D graphics research community during the 80's; engineer on the 3DO and then original PlayStation OS teams; 15 years as a lead game developer of major release titles; 5 years VFX developer and artist and financial analysis for 9 major release VFX heavy feature films; and now 10 years in machine learning and facial recognition.

I love to mentor developers. I ran a free coworking space for 3 years where I tried mentoring many, many starting-their-career developers. I also have both undergrad and graduate school teaching experience.

Out of perhaps 3 dozen mentoring situations, only 2 people actually took the opportunity seriously. Both of them went from nearly minimum wage shit coding jobs to real development companies making in excess of $70K. The other 34 people I tried to mentor never even finished the first "let's see if this person is serious" task I gave them.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#60

"17. People rely mainly on their parents for advice on what to do about education, and that has to be among the worst places to go for educational advice" This one certainly hits me hard. With a mother who dropped out of university and a father who didn't go myself and my sister both have good degrees (she's a newly qualified Vet and I'm a startup's birth and death out of uni), and nowhere to get decent advice. I kno…

My single working mother had no bandwidth to help me with getting into college. Neither of my parents had a dime to give me. Despite both my parents being college educated and emphasizing its importance, they had little practical advice or assistance to give. I knew nothing. I ended up applying to one state university, in-state, commuting long distance, not taking any loan, and working 30 hours a week to afford it. I dropped out after a semester from the unmitigated strain and sleep deprivation. I owe my quite exceptional career to our industry being lax about degrees.
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