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Surprising Things About School

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Re: Surprising Things About School

#11
I think that 3 is consequence of 10 - prototype of working online school was not created yet.

On 1: The "is this required" question is direct result of students being goal oriented with their education and time. They do it because they want job or because of social pressure. It sounds depressing, until you realize the alternative is not caring about job when choosing what are you going to learn, which is criticized in other points.

We can't have this one both ways. Either it is for purpose of job and they will ask that question, or it is hobby and they will care less about utility (e.g. job).

Re: Surprising Things About School

#12
> Nearly everyone recognizes that MOOCs are by and large a failure with ~2% completion rates

I don't see how that is a failure? MOOCs are a platform for "just in time" learning. If you run into a problem at work you're not going to sign up for a four year university degree program to figure it out, but there is a good chance you will sign up for a MOOC and drill down into the specific parts that you need to close the gap to solve the specific problem you have. And when the next problem arises, you may continue further into the course. There is no reason to cover everything at once. This flawed opinion about failure may be directly related to #3.

> Economically we vastly undervalue education.

Because it hasn't shown economic value. The percentage of the working age population who have attained a postsecondary education has skyrocketed over the past 50 years, but incomes have remained stagnant. If the more and more people attaining a postsecondary education really were adding $10k to their yearly income like the article suggests, incomes would be rising substantially.

Those who have a degree, on average, make $10k more than those who don't. But since this simply measures high-achieving people against low-achieving people, income conclusions cannot be meaningfully drawn from it. It is important to remember that universities and colleges reject the lowest-achieving people at enrolment time, preventing them from signing up for class entirely. Medium-achievers who make it past the initial filter are put through academic rigour that sees them drop or fail out. That leaves only the highest achieving people able to graduate.

Nobody should be surprised that high-achieving people are able to make more money than low-achiving people. This would remain true even if colleges and universities never existed. Finding something that correlates with high-achievers does not tell us anything other than this group of people is more likely to be high achieving.

Allowing more and more medium-achievers to graduate from university still leaves them as medium-achievers in life and they will still end up in the medium-achiever work that they always would have (after all, someone has to do it). All while incomes remain stagnant.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#13
I disagree with #6. I always felt like getting a degree is such a huge waste of time, but I need to jump through this hoop to get a job for which I didn't require much more knowledge than the programming knowledge I had after high school (self-taught).

But then again I went to school in Europe with cheap tuition, so time is the biggest investment here.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#14

Pullout: "We had one student on the edge of homelessness, was $400 short on bills and almost had to quit because of that. I personally loaned him the money, and his income moved from $10/hr to $70k+/yr. It only took $400, but he didn’t have anywhere to get that from. Insane."

I don't think it's that surprising. Anecdote: Right after I barely graduated from High School after my family clawed its way out of homelessness, I spent a few years working minimum wage jobs with long commutes in an old car. I could barely afford gas and groceries let alone decent housing and college.

After about 3 years of work, I managed to scrape together just enough to enroll in my local community college for two semesters, one class per semester. Total cost? At that time about $400 including books. And that $400 could have vaporized with one flat tire, or one visit to the doctor.

An acquaintance of my parents heard that I was going to college, suddenly took an interest and hired me sight unseen to come work at his startup in an entry-level developer job at 3x my then current pay. I worked there for a couple years and when I was close to finishing college, another acquaintance hired me and doubled my pay. After that I was attached to a growing career and haven't looked back.

But it all started with getting that tiny little bit of money together.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#15
"17. People rely mainly on their parents for advice on what to do about education, and that has to be among the worst places to go for educational advice"

This one certainly hits me hard. With a mother who dropped out of university and a father who didn't go myself and my sister both have good degrees (she's a newly qualified Vet and I'm a startup's birth and death out of uni), and nowhere to get decent advice.

I know a lot of advice I did get was wrong, my professors basically said they don't have good advice for me, and I know I'm not making the most of the experience I have behind me.

Searching for relevant mentorship is a very very hard problem.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#16
The failure of MOOCs #10 is a failure of metric measurement.

In the old days if you wanted to learn something, often you'd pay $20 to $50 for a book. For example, Amazon order search claims that somewhere I have a copy of "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming" by Norvig, which is supposed to be a decent book in the field, cool. Ironically maybe that IS the textbook for the famous AI MOOC class, I don't know, maybe it should be if it isn't. However I never finished the class, only glossed thru the book, and barely remember either.

I was curious about the topic, not trying to meet someone elses arbitrary goalpost, and the "graduates" metric isn't a useful number.

Kinda the difference between running because its a beautiful day out and I need exercise, and running a competitive marathon against live athletes in person solely for the goal of getting a number when I run thru a gate. I would guess in the general public the former outnumbers the latter 50 to 1, so the MOOC stats aren't unusual at all.

Another interesting analogy is "The Mona Lisa" painting is a failure if you measure its worth solely based on number of PHD students graduating who give it credit for them selecting "Art History" as a major. That doesn't mean it needs to be burned as a failure.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#17

> Nearly everyone recognizes that MOOCs are by and large a failure with ~2% completion rates I don't see how that is a failure? MOOCs are a platform for "just in time" learning. If you run into a problem at work you're not going to sign up for a four year university degree program to figure it out, but there is a good chance you will sign up for a MOOC and drill down into the specific parts that you need to close the…

MOOCs were propagated as alternative to traditional higher education. Not just something educated people use to add to their education, but something an uneducated person with high school diploma can use to get equivalent of college. I remember reading those optimistic articles.

At that it failed. It is not cheaper education for non traditional non full time student with lack of money. They drop out faster or equally fast then non traditional students on colleges (who drop out a a lot too).

It is great free easy to use option for educated professional through. But, that was not original sell.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#18

Very interesting thread. I want to know how to measure effectiveness, beyond "got a job". I think there is more to it than that, and getting a job doesn't work as a yardstick in many contexts (e.g. most commercial training where everyone already has a job.) "99% of people, when left long blocks of time alone to work on something without anyone to be accountable to, will watch Netflix." I have to agree with this, and…

Effectiveness is measured by intent. Those who go to University with the intent of getting 'a job' measure their success by getting 'a job'. Those who go to get a deep education on a specific topic...likely measure their success based off their understanding of the topic when they leave.

In this day and age I would hazard a guess that over 90% over University students...are there for a job and thats it.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#19

"17. People rely mainly on their parents for advice on what to do about education, and that has to be among the worst places to go for educational advice" This one certainly hits me hard. With a mother who dropped out of university and a father who didn't go myself and my sister both have good degrees (she's a newly qualified Vet and I'm a startup's birth and death out of uni), and nowhere to get decent advice. I kno…

Same here, only the opposite way. Anyone in my family have had degrees for at least 3 generations (majority had 2 degrees in different fields, and some pursued academic careers as well). Dropping out of university to do what I love is still something I feel guilty about - even 10 years later, being pretty much successful in the field I chose, I still feel like I'm a failure just because I don't have this damn piece of paper.

Re: Surprising Things About School

#20
post #17

> Nearly everyone recognizes that MOOCs are by and large a failure with ~2% completion rates I don't see how that is a failure? MOOCs are a platform for "just in time" learning. If you run into a problem at work you're not going to sign up for a four year university degree program to figure it out, but there is a good chance you will sign up for a MOOC and drill down into the specific parts that you need to close the…

MOOCs were propagated as alternative to traditional higher education. Not just something educated people use to add to their education, but something an uneducated person with high school diploma can use to get equivalent of college. I remember reading those optimistic articles. At that it failed. It is not cheaper education for non traditional non full time student with lack of money. They drop out faster or equally…

> Not just something educated people use to add to their education, but something an uneducated person with high school diploma can use to get equivalent of college.

It seems premature to say that it isn't provided that. You have your entire life to gain a college-level education. The primary reason that brick and mortar schooling is provided up front, in a relatively short span of time, is because it is impractical to visit that brick and mortar school on a regular basis throughout your entire life. Like the article points out, a major hurdle for a large segment of the population in accessing brick and mortar schooling is proximity to those brick and mortar schools.

Online learning has no such constraints. You can be out in the middle of nowhere and still pop into class whenever you feel like it. If it takes you 80 years to complete your college-level studies, great. To say that is a failure, only a few years after becoming available, seems to miss the point of what alternative means. If a MOOC had to be exactly like brick and mortar schooling, it wouldn't be an alternative, it would be the same thing.

Although I concede that a fatal flaw of MOOCs is that there are an infinite number of options online. While it may be impractical to visit 100 different brick and mortar schools to see who teaches a specific topic the best, online it is easy to do so and can be done in an instant. With that, there is no incentive to go through your studies only in one spot that can be tracked by a single entity. This makes it challenging from a business perspective, but not an education perspective.

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