Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#61

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sun, Mar 11, 2018, 11:21 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #40

Animats wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___. That leads to a cliche - the nobody who becomes a hero. That's so Pixar. Biography movies of real people aren't like that, because real life usually isn't.

If coincidences are just coincidences why do they feel so contrived?

Because in the same way we're primed to understand certain shape patterns as faces, we're primed to parse our world as a story.

A lot of "reason" is really just narrative logic. It's much more weakly predictive and less rational than scientific logic, but it's far more persuasive.

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#62

Post by ozim » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 12:17 AM UTC

luord wrote: post #55

Someone already critiqued 19 so I'll speak against 16: Sure, stack the odds against the characters' success... But don't go overboard unless you're writing a tragedy. If the odds are too against the characters, the resolution is going to feel contrived, even if it makes sense and it's not really a Deus ex Machina.

You still have to have 'all is lost' moment to make win much bigger for the audience.

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#63

Post by ozim » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 12:35 AM UTC

Erlangolem wrote: post #17

kibwen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who really likes #19, you may be reading subtext that isn't there. Coincidences, in small doses, are the foundation of stories. Every story gets one extraordinary coincidence, because extraordinary coincidences happen all the time (just not usually multiple times to the same actors within a short span of time, which is where Deus ex Machina starts being levied). Star Wars is premised upon the coin…

Dune is based on notions of grand manipulation over thousands of years; there is really no coincidence at all. I love Star Wars, but the writing is not particularly good. Coincidence in fiction is ultimately a contrivance, and I don’t mean the initial conditions. 19 talks about coincidence being fine to get characters into trouble, but not out of it.

I read Dune as how that grand manipulation went wrong because of multiple coincidences. So i would not agree there is no coincidence at all in Dune.

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#64

Post by TipVFL » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 12:36 AM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #40

Animats wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___. That leads to a cliche - the nobody who becomes a hero. That's so Pixar. Biography movies of real people aren't like that, because real life usually isn't.

If coincidences are just coincidences why do they feel so contrived?

A good rule of thumb in storytelling is that coincidences that help your protagonists will feel like the writer just cheated to get out of a corner they wrote themselves into, whereas coincidences that hurt your protagonist are more easily accepted.

If you feel you really need this lucky coincidence to save your character, you can fix that by going back earlier in the story and earning it. Your hero getting shot, and the bullet being stopped by a lighter in his pocket we've never seen before, will feel like a cheat. But if he helped a homeless guy earlier, and the homeless guy insists he take his lucky Zippo, and then the lighter saves his life, most people won't complain.

Just a little justification goes a long way, and helps make your world and story feel real and complex.

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#65

Post by dpezely » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 12:43 AM UTC

dahart wrote: post #6

> 4. Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___. This one reminds me of writing advice from South Park's Trey Parker: write better stories by figuring out how to replace all your "ands" and "buts" with "therefore". http://www.presentationzen.com/presentationzen/2015/05/the-k... > 20. Exercise: take the building blocks of a movie you disli…

> 4. Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___.

I believe this line comes from Brian McDonald and am witness to his use of it in a writing class he led at Seattle's 911 Media Arts circa 2000. (The number in their name was in reference to the original address on E Pine St.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_McDonald_(screenwriter)

He is both an accomplished writer and excellent instructor for writers. I found his guidance to work well in tandem with McKee's STORY.

His early works are of spectacular quality (e.g., White Face), and this reminds me to get caught-up on his more recent material.

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#66

Post by kbutler » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 3:36 AM UTC

Erlangolem wrote: post #5

I violently disagree with 19. The overuse of contrived means of creating tension is lazy, predictable, and frustrating. More unpleasant is the tendency of characters to become inexplicably stupid, inexperienced, and illogical under those circumstances. I’m not asking for purely rationalist fiction, but if the tension is utterly contrived, I check out. Contrived tension is no more useful than contrived resolution of t…

19. Coincidences to get characters into trouble are great; coincidences to get them out of it are cheating.

It doesn't mean contrived is great - it just means sometimes bad things happen and you have to deal with it, and we often don't understand the root causes. But if you rely on random good things to solve your problems, you won't have a very satisfying story.

This is just saying it is fine if a random car crash starts the conflict. But if a random car crash takes out the big bad, it's cheating.

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#67

Post by chrisweekly » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 5:47 AM UTC

aequitas wrote: post #32

dahart wrote: post #6

> 4. Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___. This one reminds me of writing advice from South Park's Trey Parker: write better stories by figuring out how to replace all your "ands" and "buts" with "therefore". http://www.presentationzen.com/presentationzen/2015/05/the-k... > 20. Exercise: take the building blocks of a movie you disli…

A good example of the rearranging is from Nerdwriters YouTube https://youtu.be/Gksxu-yeWcU Just a minor change in order of the same scenes completely changed a movie.

Christopher Nolan's "Following" and "Memento" come to mind as interesting, artistically succesful films in which scenes' chronological order bear non-obvious relation to their sequence. Wonder if anyone's mapped the chronological structure of fhe scenes. Bet there'd be an interesting shape there.

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#68

Post by verylittlemeat » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 6:13 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #35

dahart wrote: post #6

> 4. Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___. This one reminds me of writing advice from South Park's Trey Parker: write better stories by figuring out how to replace all your "ands" and "buts" with "therefore". http://www.presentationzen.com/presentationzen/2015/05/the-k... > 20. Exercise: take the building blocks of a movie you disli…

Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___. That leads to a cliche - the nobody who becomes a hero. That's so Pixar. Biography movies of real people aren't like that, because real life usually isn't.

Movies are escapism.

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#69

Post by mercer » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 7:48 AM UTC

ssttoo wrote: post #57

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots ... not that Pixar is likely to have a plot of the "Tragedy" kind

True, although it's the one thing that made 'Up' more than just okay. The prologue(?) is heartbreaking and quite the tragedy, and could be a satisfying (if sad) story all by itself.

Re: Pixar's Rules of Storytelling (2013)

#70

Post by zaarn » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 9:05 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #35

dahart wrote: post #6

> 4. Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___. This one reminds me of writing advice from South Park's Trey Parker: write better stories by figuring out how to replace all your "ands" and "buts" with "therefore". http://www.presentationzen.com/presentationzen/2015/05/the-k... > 20. Exercise: take the building blocks of a movie you disli…

Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___. That leads to a cliche - the nobody who becomes a hero. That's so Pixar. Biography movies of real people aren't like that, because real life usually isn't.

The hero's journey is a very very popular and very old story telling mechanism.

Everyone does it and despite that, it seems not many people are getting tired of it.

Though it's quite fun to know how a movie is going to play out next, some can even surprise you in how they do it.