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Can any composer equal Bach?

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Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#131
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally one of his lute suites is the same as the c minor cello suite. Except I think on lute it's in either a or e minor, I forget now. I don't know whether the cello suite came first or the lute suite though. But as a violist I found this interesting. I like to play his violin sonatas and partitas but on viola but people have discouraged me from this because it means changing the key and everyone insists that…

>everyone insists that Bach is very deliberate in his choice of key They’re being precious. He was a consummate pro who frequentlyrecycled his own themes and those of others, and his pieces often changed keys a dizzying number of times within just a few measures. Besides, that shit sounds beyond awesome on viola.

> Besides, that shit sounds beyond awesome on viola.

I agree. There's a fantastic recording of one of my favorite violists today, Antoine Tamestit, playing Bach's second partita. It's his appropriately named album "Chaconne", and it also includes the Ligeti viola sonata, which is probably one of the hardest things I've seen written for viola. Ugh, it's one piece that I just don't even know how to begin practicing. :)

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#132
As a pianist from the age of 5 my ranking would be Mozart, Bach, than Beethoven. Mozart was a prodigy on a level unheard of. He wrote in so many different genres and such a short time period. Mostly though, is the pure beauty and lyricism of his music. The consistency of quality. The Requiem and the Magic Flute are required listening.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#133

A careful analysis of Beethoven's later works shows him to be a worthy contender. In particular, the Große Fugue [0] and the Op. 106 Hammerklavier sonata [1] (ironically so nicknamed, because at Op. 101, Beethoven directed that all sonatas from that time on be named Große Sonate für das Hammerklavier, and the nickname only stuck to this) show a profoundly advanced sense of counterpoint and structure. In addition to a…

Beethoven is not at the level of Mozart in terms of the amount of lyricism and pathos infused into each work. Many of this piano sonatas are pretty plain and boring.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#134
post #109

If you can name a short ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cVSgEdT4KI . Love, loss, despair, grievance, new hope, closure - it's all in there in this single, short, compassionate-but-not-sentimental, solemn-but-not-sad, perfectly balanced, ethereal piece.

Lacrimosa from Mozart's Requiem - more emotion and tragedy than Bach's Air.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#136

I first should admit that I'm a 100% self taught appreciator of classical music. I don't have any formal musical education. Nor any formal history of music education. I'm the only person of my family and friends that seeks out and listens to classical music. So, my knowledge is very uneven and I'm a total pedestrian in this realm. Over the years, I've found music by references from fiction, films and criticism. I've…

Those pieces you mention aren't exactly the things I would categorize as "moving", though. What about the pieces for solo cello (BWV 1007-1008)? The Goldberg Variations? The solo violin sonatas (BWV 1001-1006)? His motets (e.g. BWV 227) and cantatas (too many to mention)? Or the Matthäus Passion (BWV 244)? Most people would also mention the Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D major (BWV 1068, more famously known as "Air on t…

I don’t agree, music is art and subject to interpretation to different people in different ways.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#137

A careful analysis of Beethoven's later works shows him to be a worthy contender. In particular, the Große Fugue [0] and the Op. 106 Hammerklavier sonata [1] (ironically so nicknamed, because at Op. 101, Beethoven directed that all sonatas from that time on be named Große Sonate für das Hammerklavier, and the nickname only stuck to this) show a profoundly advanced sense of counterpoint and structure. In addition to a…

In case anyone is interested, Kissin is doing Hammerklavier and the CSO will follow up with Rachminov May 13th - and it looks to be selling out. I grabbed my tickets already.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#138
post #62
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This silly popular image of Einstein as the genius among geniuses is just that: silly and popular. Uh, Einstein published four papers that revolutionized four areas of physics in one year : * The photoelectric effect * Brownian Motion * Special Relativity * Mass-Energy Equivalence Sure, he didn't do it alone. But even publishing one of those papers as part of a group would be an extraordinary feat for a physicist o…

It should be noted that his explanation for the photoelectric proved that photons we’re discrete objects, paving the way for quantum mechanics, and his explanation for Brownian motion was the first definitive proof that matter was made up of atoms. I point this out just because someone unfamiliar with these topics might think that those two papers were some esoteric things that physicists appreciate but most people w…

The Einstein Nobel situation was very political. More and more physicists each year thought that Einstein should get it for special relativity, and later for that and/or general relativity.

However, there were a few physicists who thought specially relativity was bunk, and that included some who were very influential, such as 1905 Nobel winner Phillip Lenard. Until experimental proof of relativity was found, they had no trouble keeping the prize away from Einstein.

By 1919, when there was sufficient proof of general relativity that the "it's not been proved" excuse no longer worked, Germany had lost World War I, and a lot of people were looking for excuses to explain that loss, and Jews were a good target. Especially pacifist Jewish scientists like Einstein who had refused to turn their science toward the war effort. The prominent nationalist scientists, like Lenard, saw people like Einstein as practically traitors. They labeled relativity "Jewish Physics", as opposed to correct, "German Physics", and ascribed evil intent to those trying to mislead Germany with their fake Jewish physics. (Lenard went on the become "Chief of Aryan Physics" under the Nazis).

In 1921, the Prize committee did not find any of the nominees that year worthy, and considered not awarding the prize that year. This would make the already ridiculous situation with Einstein even worse--it's one thing to not give Einstein the prize because you give it to someone else. That at least makes some sense--at worst you might be seen as misjudging the importance of the winning work. But to say there is nothing worthy out there at all, when Einstein does not have even one of the arguably 3 he deserves? Absurd!

But giving the prize for relativity would piss off a lot of nationalist and/or antisemitic Germans, both among German scientists and German politicians. In the political climate of Germany at the time, this was not a good thing to do. Germany was still one of the most, if not the most important science countries in the world. Scientists do have to live in the real world, so there was reluctance.

Someone suggested that they give it to Einstein, but make it clear that they are not endorsing relativity, so he got the 1921 prize, "for his services to Theoretical Physics, and especially for his discovery of the law of the photoelectric effect" with a note that this was "without taking into account the value that will be accorded your relativity and gravitation theories after these are confirmed in the future".

Given all that, I don't think you can infer that the Nobel committee giving him the prize for the photoelectric effect necessarily means they thought that it was his top accomplishment.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#139
post #93

Since we're on this topic: Is Western classical music (typified by Bach) really the zenith in our human understanding of the 'universal' language of music? Certainly, the complex and subtle tunes and harmonies of classical, in particular, give us goosebumps, provoke intense emotional responses. Do the same phenomena occur in other musical cultures? Traditional Japanese, Chinese, Javanese, Indian - their musical expre…

Indian Classical Music is perhaps the most versatile of all kinds of music I have come across. A traditional western scale has 12 notes, in the Indian system (carnatic) there are four further divisions, making it a 48 note octave. Instead of scales, there are raags and they signify different moods. Indian Flute Meditation Music: https://youtu.be/mr8GBzTsWqM

>48 note octave

That's somewhat of an exaggeration. There are embellishments of notes that border half and quarter-notes, but they are usually centered around a point on the 12 note octave.

Also, there is a price to be paid for the melodic complexity: there is essentially no place for harmony in the Indian tradition. On the other hand, there is a lot more room for improvisation, making it more akin to Jazz than to any Western classical form.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#140

I first should admit that I'm a 100% self taught appreciator of classical music. I don't have any formal musical education. Nor any formal history of music education. I'm the only person of my family and friends that seeks out and listens to classical music. So, my knowledge is very uneven and I'm a total pedestrian in this realm. Over the years, I've found music by references from fiction, films and criticism. I've…

> but every time I get to Bach, I stop short. I just can't stand the music. What's not to like in these e.g.? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv94m_S3QDo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cVSgEdT4KI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9EN27Zh_vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv40mcAM1ZA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uzZu9HZBWA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGQLXRTl3Z0 > I understand the music is important historic…

Sure this music is "nice", and I can appreciate it, but personally I find it boring. I use Bach as background music for when I want to go to sleep. If I want to actually enjoy and be stimulated by music, I listen to something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kwajecmh2c
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