Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Can any composer equal Bach?

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 171 posts

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#31

Post by Cyph0n »

whack wrote: post #30

Ironically enough, I think the author did a fantastic job of demonstrating why "writing about music" is a fool's game. I love Bach as well, but what makes him the "ultimate", beyond reach of others like Mozart? The article paints numerous glowing tributes by Bach's fans, presents the inspiration of his life, but fails utterly in answering the ultimate question. I've always believed that art is qualitatively different…

> I've always believed that art is qualitatively different from pop entertainment. The latter is purely subjective, and aims to pleasure us. Art, in contrast, is defined by its ability to inspire its audience.

So art, unlike pop entertainment, is not purely subjective? And can pop entertainment not "inspire its audience" or "elevate the way we think"?

> Which is more tasty, chocolate or oranges? That's an impossible question to answer in any objective manner. But which is more nutritious? Which is better for our health? That is something which can be quantified and discussed much more objectively.

If your goal was to provide an analogy for art vs. pop entertainment, I don't think it worked.

> I look forward to the day we can have similar discussions about art.

That might happen, but only when art, like nutritional value, can be objectively evaluated and have its "beauty" (or whatever the term is) concretely quantified.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#32

Post by poulsbohemian »

siglesias wrote: post #19

If anyone is interested in Bach's keyboard literature, it's hard to top the interpretations of Glenn Gould, a fascinating musician in his own right. Here, for example, is a seminal performance of the D minor concerto, conducted by Leonard Bernstein: https://youtu.be/9ZX_XCYokQo?t=5m9s

I like Gould, but there's something I like more about Simone Dinnerstein's rendition of the Goldberg Variations. It's somehow warmer sounding to me over the precision of Gould.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#34

Post by jancsika »

> It’s inconceivable that another composer could take Bach’s place in that slot. Even Mozart or Beethoven wouldn’t cut it.

I'd pick Mozart.

When listeners hear Bach enumerate what seems like every significant variation technique for a given theme, they can quickly attribute mastery upon hearing that one piece.

But someone with Bach's abilities could just as easily have only imagined all those variations as potential music, then chosen only a few excerpts for a lighter, shorter setting.

Now, imagine this alternative-timeline Bach wrote in a late 18th century operatic form. For each aria he a) picks a fitting style (or mashes up fitting/effective styles), b) imagines the set of possible music based on the character of the text, and c) chooses what he thinks is the most fitting from all those possibilities. (Also, throw in a bunch of hidden musical jokes along the way.)

That alternative-timeline Bach would be superior to the real Bach. Because he came after the real Bach his output includes real Bach's mastery of counterpoint (Jupiter Symphony, Intro to Requiem). Also alternative-timeline Bach can imitate real Bach's style at will (two-part invention at the end of Rondo in A minor).

The only difficulty is that the listener has to listen to a lot of alternative-timeline Bach before they start to get a sense of the scope of his mastery.

Well, good thing the slot we're trying to fill gives an audience plenty of time to hear a variety of music from this composer's output.

Bach++ ftw.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#35

Post by sotojuan »

whack wrote: post #30

Ironically enough, I think the author did a fantastic job of demonstrating why "writing about music" is a fool's game. I love Bach as well, but what makes him the "ultimate", beyond reach of others like Mozart? The article paints numerous glowing tributes by Bach's fans, presents the inspiration of his life, but fails utterly in answering the ultimate question. I've always believed that art is qualitatively different…

> The latter is purely subjective, and aims to pleasure us.

A lot of composers of the Classical era such as Haydn would gladly say their music is made for the pleasure of all or as many people as possible ("I write my music in order that the weary and worn or the men burdened with affairs might enjoy a few minutes of solace and refreshment."). In fact, I would argue the whole point of the Classical style of the late 1700s was to move away from (in their words) "elitist" and complicated music of Bach and the opera seria, Mozart's operas being much easier to relate to as an average Joe than Monteverdi's. Yet all their works are inspiring and elevating - I think both goals can be achieved.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#36

Post by contravariant »

trendia wrote: post #12
bobthechef wrote: post #10

"It’s hard to think of a more refined brain than Albert Einstein’s," What an absolutely silly remark. There were things Einstein was good at, and things he was not. This silly popular image of Einstein as the genius among geniuses is just that: silly and popular. And this appeal to his supposed authority (more like piggybacking off his popular reputation) is just tawdry. "“writing about music is like dancing about ar…

> This silly popular image of Einstein as the genius among geniuses is just that: silly and popular. Uh, Einstein published four papers that revolutionized four areas of physics in one year : * The photoelectric effect * Brownian Motion * Special Relativity * Mass-Energy Equivalence Sure, he didn't do it alone. But even publishing one of those papers as part of a group would be an extraordinary feat for a physicist o…

This is suspiciously close to what I imagine would happen when an advanced time-travelling society sends back an emissary to advance our technology.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#37

Post by DoreenMichele »

contravariant wrote: post #36
trendia wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This silly popular image of Einstein as the genius among geniuses is just that: silly and popular. Uh, Einstein published four papers that revolutionized four areas of physics in one year : * The photoelectric effect * Brownian Motion * Special Relativity * Mass-Energy Equivalence Sure, he didn't do it alone. But even publishing one of those papers as part of a group would be an extraordinary feat for a physicist o…

This is suspiciously close to what I imagine would happen when an advanced time-travelling society sends back an emissary to advance our technology.

Shhhh. You don't want to draw too much attention to yourself now.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#38

Post by Bud »

stochastic_monk wrote: post #8

A careful analysis of Beethoven's later works shows him to be a worthy contender. In particular, the Große Fugue [0] and the Op. 106 Hammerklavier sonata [1] (ironically so nicknamed, because at Op. 101, Beethoven directed that all sonatas from that time on be named Große Sonate für das Hammerklavier, and the nickname only stuck to this) show a profoundly advanced sense of counterpoint and structure. In addition to a…

I think Bach's scope is much, much larger than most listeners are aware. For instance, most are completely unaware of the Bach cantata repertoire, the guitar/lute repertoire, etc. I don't mean you personally, because I of course do not know what you're familiar with.

(personal bias: I sing professionally, and a fairly large part of what I sing is Bach.)

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#40

Post by Bud »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #11

I first should admit that I'm a 100% self taught appreciator of classical music. I don't have any formal musical education. Nor any formal history of music education. I'm the only person of my family and friends that seeks out and listens to classical music. So, my knowledge is very uneven and I'm a total pedestrian in this realm. Over the years, I've found music by references from fiction, films and criticism. I've…

Hi, DubiousPusher. If you could tell me some other classical music that you really like, I could probably better suggest particular Bach recordings you might like. I suggest the vocal music, though, for starters.
Post reply on HN