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Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

benfrederickson.com

81–90 of 111 posts

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#81

I wouldn't have been hired for the jobs i've had if it wasn't for my Github. I don't think false-negatives should lead you to disregard the ability to find that perfect developer. Is it not your responsibility as a developer to keep an accurate portfolio of your skill set?

> Is it not your responsibility as a developer to keep an accurate portfolio of your skill set? It is not. If an employer can't ascertain your skill level through the interview process, their hiring is broken. It is a slippery slope where we allow employers to dictate uncompensated signaling necessary for a role. Observe how it worked out for everyone who got a degree because employers won't hire without one, and the…

> If an employer can't ascertain your skill level through the interview process, their hiring is broken.

I think the better way of putting that is "Interviewing is broken". Determining that a candidate meets a minimum level of skill-set is possible to do in an interview, however, determining much beyond that is highly elusive. I've had candidates that were incredible "Used Car Salesmen", who the previous interviewers wanted to "skip the technical interview" and just hire the guy outright because he was so convincing only to have his outcome in the technical interview end up being terrible (and I've had candidates get the job where this fact was discovered too late)[0]. I've had candidates that I've had to have a fight nearly come to blows to get a candidate hired because they were so nervous that they completely bombed the interview, and that "accurate portfolio of their skill set" was the only thing, outside of my insistence, that got them hired (out of the few this has happened with, all were good hires, too).

I'm not asking anyone to jump through my hoops (especially now that I'm working at a place where I, thankfully, no longer interview candidates). I don't ask candidates to white-board code (I wouldn't let them if they wanted to), but given a candidate who has a solid portfolio against a candidate who does not -- assuming all other things are equal (or the portfolio is incredible) -- I'm going to hire the one with a portfolio. And I feel it is a personal responsibility of mine to keep that stuff up-to-date. I could do a better job of it, myself, but if I failed to get a job because I lacked in that area, I wouldn't blame anyone but myself.

[0] I blame myself for this one -- he could talk up and down about concepts; was hugely into functional programming at a time when that was less mainstream. He not only knew all of the buzzwords, but he knew the "why"'s behind them. Academically speaking, he was incredibly knowledgeable. It wasn't until he had to actually learn an existing code base and contribute to it that it was discovered he lacked in execution. A manager on his team felt that he "froze up" ... would write something seven different ways and keep coming back to it while writing follow-on features until all he was doing was modifying code he'd already written to yield the same result, just slightly differently. I, arrogantly, assumed he was too good for the half-rate programmers we hired but upon running into someone who worked with him at the company he came from, it was discovered that he was not actually employed by them at the time he was interviewing as he'd been let go a couple of weeks prior ... and he had the same problem there.

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#82
post #6

I look at GitHub profiles to help filter / disqualify candidates. Just last weekend, I had a marketing candidate who had stolen three Wordpress projects from their current employer and post them as public repos on their personal GitHub account. In addition to the flagrant intellectual property theft, the repos contained the wp-config.php file with exposed database “root” credentials to live, client sites.

I know it's not really your responsibility but did you inform those sites and/or the candidate?

We did.

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#83
post #6

I look at GitHub profiles to help filter / disqualify candidates. Just last weekend, I had a marketing candidate who had stolen three Wordpress projects from their current employer and post them as public repos on their personal GitHub account. In addition to the flagrant intellectual property theft, the repos contained the wp-config.php file with exposed database “root” credentials to live, client sites.

FYI: WordPress.com requires plugins to be GPL for their public marketplace, so there may be nothing "flagrant" going on at all.

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#84
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it not your responsibility as a developer to keep an accurate portfolio of your skill set? It is not. If an employer can't ascertain your skill level through the interview process, their hiring is broken. It is a slippery slope where we allow employers to dictate uncompensated signaling necessary for a role. Observe how it worked out for everyone who got a degree because employers won't hire without one, and the…

> If an employer can't ascertain your skill level through the interview process, their hiring is broken. I think the better way of putting that is "Interviewing is broken". Determining that a candidate meets a minimum level of skill-set is possible to do in an interview, however, determining much beyond that is highly elusive. I've had candidates that were incredible "Used Car Salesmen", who the previous interviewers…

[deleted]

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#85
post #67

What should be the Dribbble equivalent for software engineers then? All I hear these days is, whiteboards for hiring is bad, asking to do a sample project for hiring is bad, now GitHub is bad. I don't know when software engineers became such "I don't want to show my work" industry. Having a portfolio to show what your capable of is a great way to set yourself apart. I don't think anyone is expecting you to have devel…

I do plenty of extra curricular activity.They don't involve coding. I’ve also hired developers. I have a simplified version of a real world project that we are working on. The methods are skeletons with no code and a bunch of failing unit tests. Part 1 they have to get the unit test passing. Then I give them a harder set of requirements with unit tests. They have to make the second set pass without breaking the first…

I do the same as well, I think it is a great approach. It is just a paring exercise, the language of their choice, their equipment, full internet access. We just build something like a calculator or pig latin translator. Something that you build up in layers. I usually read off the test cases one step at a time, in hopes that they write their own tests along the way.

But hiring good people is very time consuming. The reason GitHub as a portfolio makes sense, is that it helps compare potential candidates--that I know nothing about--faster. Biased or not, I have had the best experience with people that are very active publicly. From Battlebots competitors, book authors, to startup founders, etc.

Ivy League Colleges, VCs, even Y-Combinator works very much the same way--trying to make an assessment based on past accomplishments. The more visible, the better. With the caveat being a strong direct reference.

I am sure we all have extra circular activities besides coding, but depending on how strong your experience or professional network is, really depends on how much you need in a portfolio. I have been coding since I was nine and have decades of experience, I still have stuff I hack on that is public, from SlackBots that control GPIO pins to Sonos controllers, etc. I would think the more experience you have, the better chances you would have more stuff you can add to your GitHub (portfolio).

At the end of the day, as a someone hiring, I am going to gravitate to engineers that have more and better examples of their work ability and output vs where they worked on their Resume. Not to say that we should ignore anyone that doesn't have public projects--but they are certainly at a disadvantage against someone that has.

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#86
post #6

I look at GitHub profiles to help filter / disqualify candidates. Just last weekend, I had a marketing candidate who had stolen three Wordpress projects from their current employer and post them as public repos on their personal GitHub account. In addition to the flagrant intellectual property theft, the repos contained the wp-config.php file with exposed database “root” credentials to live, client sites.

> flagrant intellectual property theft Granted, this seems like a case that's less malice and more adequately explained by stupidity.

Not sure either bodes well for hiring.

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#87
post #67

What should be the Dribbble equivalent for software engineers then? All I hear these days is, whiteboards for hiring is bad, asking to do a sample project for hiring is bad, now GitHub is bad. I don't know when software engineers became such "I don't want to show my work" industry. Having a portfolio to show what your capable of is a great way to set yourself apart. I don't think anyone is expecting you to have devel…

seemingly too lazy Some people aren't in the mood for extra curricular activity after working +14h a day. They rather unwind, and be productive the day after in their not-pushing-to-github jobs.

And here you are on HN. It is hard to buy this argument. Instead of reading HN for a week, hack out a little app and toss it up on GitHub. I am almost certain that is more valuable for you than opining here.

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Candidates have to meet employers halfway. Perhaps in a recession, but in the current market, the employer must meet the candidate. That's how supply and demand works. To confirm (as an example), check out the last HN Who's Hiring [1], and compare to the next one. I assure you, most of the positions go unfilled because demand is exceeding supply. A company can either make their filters more reasonable, pay more, or…

There may be more jobs available than developers, but all of those jobs aren't equal. For the good jobs, you're competing against other good people. Good luck playing coy. There were also more women than men in my university, but that didn't free up the cutest girl in the bar.

> For the good jobs, you're competing against other good people. Good luck playing coy.

Everyone does not need the best job. They all just need good enough jobs that continually must improve because demand outstrips supply. See Basecamp for an example; I'm confident developers reading that post began to think about their compensation after reading that.

"Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in San Francisco, but now we pay everyone as though all did"

https://m.signalvnoise.com/basecamp-doesnt-employ-anyone-in-...

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#89
I think that "having github will help you" is the same kind of advice as "prefer to provide resume in pdf over doc".

There are people who believe in it, it seems reasonable, but in reality nobody cares. Just another cargo cult.

Re: Why GitHub Won't Help with Hiring

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's not really your responsibility but did you inform those sites and/or the candidate?

We did.

Did you also report the employer's "theft", as you put it, of WordPress's GPL'd code?
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