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An argument that companies should pay users for their data

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Re: An argument that companies should pay users for their data

#161
post #58

I'll never understand why I can't pay Google and Facebook $20 to $50 per year to simply respect my privacy and not give me advertisements. I can't imagine they make more than this off my viewing behaviour (especially as I use adblock)

Because it's a boring, safe, traditional business model.

Instead they've bet on harvesting and exploiting information about the behaviour of the many, to ultimately allow them to exert some 'control/influence' over individuals.

And they're winning the business lottery with it.

More shame us for only considering ourselves when deciding whether or not to use a service like google. I can choose not to use google/facebook, but if everyone else uses them, they'll still have incredible power over me through the insights they gleaned about everyone else

Re: An argument that companies should pay users for their data

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is a sad state of affairs that it had to come to this point resulting from "don't ask for permission upfront, ask for forgiveness later" Huh. I actually believe most western societies are incredibly tilted in the "ask permission" direction. You have to petition to start a business, cut someone's hair, buy a gun, get married, copy a book... I could probably find a hundred things you're supposed to ask for…

> You have to petition to start a business, cut someone's hair, buy a gun, get married, copy a book... I could probably find a hundred things you're supposed to ask for permission before doing. The rules are very selectively enforced depending on what class you belong to though. As a guy with a pair of scissors, I can't start cutting hair without "asking permission" in the form of a license. As a guy with a cart, I c…

Agreed. The little guy has to ask for permission; the big guy can usually ignore it. (There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.) That's why I'm so against the idea that, as a society, we should tilt even more in the direction of asking for permissions.

My ideal is Leary from Demolition Man - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JizGkM6gbvQ - and no, I don't think that leads to living underground.

Re: An argument that companies should pay users for their data

#164

This is absolute nonsense and dangerous to boot. Facebook's ARPU is still less than $20/year. If they literally paid all of their profits directly to their user it would still be a pittance. The real value of privacy has to do with freedom, manipulation and surveillance, and that is not represented by economic measures at all. Talking about the value of the data in purely economic terms is exactly the way you would w…

I'm working on a blockchain solution that gives consumers the ability to control and monetize their data:

www.databook.one

@dasil003 I agree that Facebook's ARPU is super low. However, with that statistic is related to ad revenue, not revenue from the sale of data. Facebook doesn't publically sell its consumer data. Thus, we're talking apples and oranges.

To buy raw data, you need to go to data brokers, who are currently earning $250 billion per year from selling consumer data. Raw data is super valuable because you can build predictive models with it. With very small samples of customer data, powerful models can be built that can deliver millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars to a business' bottom line.

I can testify to this because I led the technology team for company that earned millions by leveraging machine learning to predict who would sell their house bellow market prices in the next few months.

The problem with buying data from data brokers is that the quality is awful. For example, the accuracy rate of America's largest data broker, Acxiom is only 50%. This problem is holding back the advancement of machine learning. If consumers linked and verified their own data, we could improve that accuracy rate significantly and deliver much more accurate models to businesses.

Thus, we expect that compensation paid by companies to individuals sharing their complete data profiles could be significant.

I've seen estimates that the value of data will reach $7,500K per American per year by 2022.

Even if we reached 10% of this estimate, I'd want that money in my pocket instead of some data broker.

What are your thoughts?

Re: An argument that companies should pay users for their data

#165
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"While you've presented a compelling counter-argument, I'm still not convinced." It was far more compelling that your argument. "You didn't need to because they never stored "your data"." Yes, they did. My social security number, my address history, my employment history, all my data.

>Yes, they did. My social security number, my address history, my employment history, all my data. I can write down in my notepad right now: s73v3r_ - thumb sucker and whether it's true or false, real or imaginary, relevant or irrelevant to you personally, it doesn't make it yours.

So I suppose in your mind that whatever a company wants to do is fine, and that's your prerogative. But in the real world, that's simply not true. And in the real world, this data is derived purely from me. It absolutely is MY data, and they have no right to collect it without my consent, and they have no right to sell it to others without my consent. To believe otherwise is to believe that a person does not have personal agency, and that a person is not in charge of themselves.

Re: An argument that companies should pay users for their data

#167

This is absolute nonsense and dangerous to boot. Facebook's ARPU is still less than $20/year. If they literally paid all of their profits directly to their user it would still be a pittance. The real value of privacy has to do with freedom, manipulation and surveillance, and that is not represented by economic measures at all. Talking about the value of the data in purely economic terms is exactly the way you would w…

I'm working on a blockchain solution that gives consumers the ability to control and monetize their data: www.databook.one @dasil003 I agree that Facebook's ARPU is super low. However, with that statistic is related to ad revenue, not revenue from the sale of data. Facebook doesn't publically sell its consumer data. Thus, we're talking apples and oranges. To buy raw data, you need to go to data brokers, who are curre…

If you put the control in the hands of the people whose data is being handled, I'm sure a significant percentage will default to "Do not share" given an explicit choice.

People aren't going to directly assist and curate the ability for 3rd parties to spew more spam & spyware on their webpages and in their email inboxes. If they could see what sort of data is being tracked, that can easily trigger their creepiness receptors and wish to distance themselves from it.

The only reason people endure the current situation is because they don't feel they can do anything about it, and really don't know the extent of what's going on. Empowering them will finally allow them to actively break out of that cycle.

Re: An argument that companies should pay users for their data

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that corporations aren't people leads to evil. "Oh, yes we harvested your data from all the sites you visited and used it to manipulate you in to buying stuff that harms your livelihood (gambling, say), but it's the _company_ that did it and so none of the controlling executives can be blamed!"

The idea that corporations aren't people means that any blame must rest with the people acting through and in the name of the corporation, and any rights and privileges asserted by those people must be their own individual rights. Which is pretty much the opposite of the insulating effect of both your description and, more to the point, the status quo corporate form.

Ah, I think we have a communication failure, you're supporting the idea a "corporation is a legal person in itself". "Corporations are people" to me means they are a group, corpus, or body, of multiple individual humans who each should be answerable for their actions.

Re: An argument that companies should pay users for their data

#170
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes, they did. My social security number, my address history, my employment history, all my data. I can write down in my notepad right now: s73v3r_ - thumb sucker and whether it's true or false, real or imaginary, relevant or irrelevant to you personally, it doesn't make it yours.

So I suppose in your mind that whatever a company wants to do is fine, and that's your prerogative. But in the real world, that's simply not true. And in the real world, this data is derived purely from me. It absolutely is MY data, and they have no right to collect it without my consent, and they have no right to sell it to others without my consent. To believe otherwise is to believe that a person does not have per…

>So I suppose in your mind that whatever a company wants to do is fine, and that's your prerogative.

Non sequitur and a red herring.

>To believe otherwise is to believe that a person does not have personal agency, and that a person is not in charge of themselves.

Non sequitur. Someone owning data about you has nothing to do with denying someone's "personal agency". Quite the opposite. I would suggest someone recording the actions you make is a testament to the principle of personal agency. You can own yourself and your choices all day long, but you don't control the consequences of those actions. Furthermore, if you're saying someone cannot record things that they observe, you are denying them their personal agency. (As an aside, I find your appeal to "personal agency" curious given your previous assertion that people are irrational, implying the foolishness of such a principle).

>But in the real world, that's simply not true. And in the real world

In the real world there are a myriad of legal jurisdictions, with a myriad of laws whose principles and motives often are contradictory. I am not arguing from the perspective of the status quo. Individuals can also demonstrate cognitive dissonance.

Please answer the following questions:

1) If I observe you walking down the street and I see you wearing a pair of Adidas athletic shoes, and I make a mental note to myself "s73v3r_ wears Adidas athletic shoes", do you own my thought?

1a) If yes to #1 how do you justify owning a stranger's thoughts?

2) If I write down the thought in my notepad, do you own the entry in my notepad?

2a) If yes to #2 how do you justify owning an entry in a stranger's notepad who expended their labor creating?

If you answered no to #1 and yes to #2 then you have a contradiction you need to account for (data is data whether it is in memory or persisted). If you answered no to #1 and no to #2 then you have established the principle that you do not own data about you. If you answered yes to #1 and yes to #2 then it would be good for you to at least be explicit so those who are following the argument understand your premise.

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