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Standardizing lessons learned from AMP

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Re: Standardizing lessons learned from AMP

#21

Just for kicks, folks, let's collect all of the adjectives, adverbs and qualifiers used in this post to describe ~AMP: * a leading format * consistently excellent * invest strongly in ... * well-lit * user-first * instant-loading * tightly-integrated * highly-optimized * great * well-lit * great * well documented * easily deployable * validatable * opinionated about user-first principles * fast development * constant…

Excellent lexical analysis :) Glad to know I wasn't the only one who couldn't help but cringe while reading this.

Re: Standardizing lessons learned from AMP

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handing over AMP would prevent the standards committee from making backward-incompatible changes to please other participants. It seems better to start fresh and have a compatibility break? Not to mention that there's little point in preserving a name that's pretty controversial. And in the meantime, AMP would still need to be maintained. We've seen this before in less controversial areas. For example, SPDY was propr…

Google is not replacing AMP, or promoting the standards group to replace AMP. Google is using things like web packaging with AMP, and intends to continue to do so. Their statements today, if anything, state a clear intent to continue to invest in and build on AMP. So, while all of these other components are going to be going to standards orgs, why not let them also have AMP? (A standards org is never beholden to keep…

Moreover, if you read their proposed “standards”, you can see how they want to just have the same AMP treatment for other pages.

iframe promotion explicitly describes how AMP pages become “fast” (through preloading on Google Search pages)

web packaging is just a way to have signed pre-rendered pages on a CDN.

Together they give Google the power to cache/promote/“speed up” pages at will

Re: Standardizing lessons learned from AMP

#24
I wrote a blog post about these proposals a couple of weeks ago and a nice HN thread formed around it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16424445

But as I said in my post, the problem with posts like today's AMP blog post is that they're too full of jargon to be comprehensible to a general audience. The Web Packaging standard is really cool, but today's blog post just linked out to a ton of web standards without defining them or explaining how they'll work in the future.

If you've got your head deep in AMP's community, this post is quite meaningful, but to everyone else, and especially to the huge community of developers who hate AMP, it reads like Greek.

It reflects a core problem with AMP's developer outreach strategy: a refusal to accept and acknowledge criticism. There are overwhelmingly more AMP detractors than AMP promoters, and the detractors have good arguments, arguments that the AMP team even kinda sorta accepts (which is why they're trying to push through these browser standards, to address the bugs).

But you'll never hear AMP technical leaders like Malte Ubl or Paul Bakaus saying, "Yes, we accept that criticism, and the problems with AMP are really serious, and here's what we're doing to fix this. In the meanwhile, for many sites the tradeoff is worth it anyway."

The top thread in the HN thread was not whether the AMP brand was toxic but why the AMP brand is toxic. I think that if the AMP team had somebody focused on telling AMP's story, humbly and honestly, with a focus on the web developer community on HN, Reddit, Smashing, etc. it could have really helped.

Now, I think it's too late. The new Web Packaging thing shouldn't be called "AMP." The new "AMP for email" thing shouldn't be called AMP, either, because everybody knows that AMP sucks, and there's really no way to claw your way back from that.

Re: Standardizing lessons learned from AMP

#25

I wrote a blog post about these proposals a couple of weeks ago and a nice HN thread formed around it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16424445 But as I said in my post, the problem with posts like today's AMP blog post is that they're too full of jargon to be comprehensible to a general audience. The Web Packaging standard is really cool, but today's blog post just linked out to a ton of web standards without d…

And Apple is bound to take a decade to implement the standard, so publishers will have to stick with AMP for the foreseeable future.

Re: Standardizing lessons learned from AMP

#26
post #23

Is anyone out there doing anything with AMP besides Google? It seems like it could be super useful for aggregator sites like Reddit. Or HN for that matter. Like a heavyweight version of OpenGraph meta tags.

The reddit AMP pages you land on from Google searches are particularly irritating. You aren’t logged in when you go to them, and various UI expectations are broken. Web packaging could help here since it would remove the google url, allowing cookies/sessions to function again.

Re: Standardizing lessons learned from AMP

#27
post #3

From the point of view of a user concerned with Google's influence, this seems like a good move. From the point of view of a SRE who would have to help configure a server side implementation of web packaging, having yet another http request/response type to build and maintain seems like a bloody nightmare. And OCSP with the signature when Chrome themselves have disabled its use? It also requires custom behavior from…

> And OCSP with the signature when Chrome themselves have disabled its use? It's not the first (or probably last) time that Big G's said "Do as we say, not as we do." Heck, the blog post is hosted on WordPress instead of Google's own Blogger.

Chrome hasn't disabled OCSP. It just only enforces it when you're doing OCSP stapling with must-staple. Firefox did the same: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1366100

Re: Standardizing lessons learned from AMP

#28

I wrote a blog post about these proposals a couple of weeks ago and a nice HN thread formed around it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16424445 But as I said in my post, the problem with posts like today's AMP blog post is that they're too full of jargon to be comprehensible to a general audience. The Web Packaging standard is really cool, but today's blog post just linked out to a ton of web standards without d…

telling AMP's story, humbly and honestly

What would that look like? "We have a gun to your head"? There are some very uncomfortable truths here about Google's near-monopoly on Web traffic.

Re: Standardizing lessons learned from AMP

#30
post #26
post #23

Is anyone out there doing anything with AMP besides Google? It seems like it could be super useful for aggregator sites like Reddit. Or HN for that matter. Like a heavyweight version of OpenGraph meta tags.

The reddit AMP pages you land on from Google searches are particularly irritating. You aren’t logged in when you go to them, and various UI expectations are broken. Web packaging could help here since it would remove the google url, allowing cookies/sessions to function again.

Web Packaging (at least on its own) wouldn't help with that, since the whole point of that standard is to allow content to be prefetched from a CDN (like AMP pages currently are), and CDNs can't cache content that's user-specific.

What _would_ work is serving the main content immediately, then using JS to fetch user-specific stuff after the page load.

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