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‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

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51–60 of 108 posts

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#51

"Blockchain" has come to designate a very well defined concept: any technical and financial construction designed for speculative investment in unregulated securities out of reach of traditional authorities, usually having a very shady, deflationary or ponzi-like economic structure and strong money laundry potential. There is nothing fundamentally novel in distributed databases or their application in finance, we kne…

I am of the same conclusion, however, the dreaded blockchain has those that are true believers. They will cite the Estonia example and they will cite Wikileaks and how that show was able to be kept on the road thanks to Bitcoin payments that were provided when Visa and their ilk in 'fiat land' decided to take their payment methods away. They will cite a land registry in some poor African country and tell you how good it is that their evil government cannot take the 'peasants' land away.

If that is not enough to suppress your questioning of blockchain they will also roll out the commerce examples, e.g. the Walmart supply chain or whatever it is.

You will be told about some of these '541t coins' (as you call them) in venerated ways, as if the goals of their founders put the efforts of everyone from Mother Theresa to Elon Musk in the shade as far as noble ambition for humanity is concerned.

It is like they are trying to fool ninety percent of you for ninety percent of the time.

Maybe you work in some computing discipline that is tediously dull compared to the parsnip science that is blockchain. Perhaps you are a small cog in supply chain management or maybe you are at the cutting edge of some new 3D printing technology that is revolutionising something important, e.g. dentistry. Up until now you have felt that you may have been pleasing your clients and delivering value not just to your company but to the wider world. You think deeply about any conceivable way that blockchain technology could revolutionise things for you. Or maybe do what you are doing already but better because of the magic blockchain.

Even though you know your sector inside and out and your industry pretty well, your mind draws a blank. This is despite your code being used in many different parts of business applications. Your only conclusion is that there is no use whatsoever for blockchain in what you do.

The blockchain bore who has not spent 'a career' doing some useful industry thing will be able to declare that you are just not getting it. Clearly your mind is just too limited, you are old in the head and unable to grasp what blockchain is about, how it works and how it is going to change everything. If you can't even see one use with all that stuff you know and work with then clearly you have not understood what blockchain is all about.

By now you have also had time to think about the examples of blockchain use presented by the blockchain bore. With Wikileaks it was all a scam, it conveniently kicked off the Arab Spring, confirmed a few things we knew already, led to the Assange sideshow but lead to little change.

Plus how much does it really cost to host a few web pages? £200000 a year in hosting fees? What fools they were to sell their bitcoinz!

So what remains?

As you say, gambling on unregulated securities. Paying for illegal things online is the second use for the dreaded blockchain.

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#52
post #37
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI even has this problem among it's researchers. What the fuck is a neural network?

Neural Network describes a class of algorithms. It's often misused in marketing (buzzword), but there is an engineering definition used by people that practice machine learning. A perceptron, the basic unit in a neural network, has one or more inputs, an algorithm for processing the input, and one or more outputs. Layers of perceptron are often used so that the original input gets transformed over each layer. The mos…

Sorry, I'm not actually confused as to how the word neural network is used. I'm saying that it's stupid nomenclature. But thanks for clarifying anyway :).

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#53
post #49
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like if people involved in: - ATMs - eCommerce - Foreign intelligence and signals or any other similar field where crypto is essential started calling themselves 'crypto'. Yes, these field use crypto, but no, they're not crypto. Just like cryptocurrencies aren't crypto. This is crytpo: https://cr.yp.to This is crypto: https://crypto.stackexchange.com/ . Things that use crypto are not crypto.

The meaning of words change when the rest of humanity takes it for their own. Claiming "crypto are not crypto" will just leave you behind as the guy with his fist in the air cursing the world. Nuclear. Hacker. Patriot. Rubber. The audience matters. Besides, I doubt that any cryptanalyst would mind writing out cryptography any more than they'd mind writing out TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256.

I'm stating crypto is cryptography. There's not multiple cryptographies as far as I'm aware so 'crypto are' doesn't make sense.

And yes, words change over time, but in that case I can just refer to (all) cryptocurrency as 'Bitcoin' since that's the common definition. In fact it's far more popular to refer to cryptocurrency as Bitcoin than it is to call that 'crypto'. Short version: this one isn't settled yet.

How did nuclear, patriot and rubber change?

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#54
post #40
post #14

The blockchain hype is crazy. My favorite truism that I see people spouting is that Bitcoin (or cryptocurrencies are) is worthless, but blockchain is a huge innovation. Little do these people understand that the true innovation is Bitcoin's proof of work as a consensus mechanism with the economic incentive of mining. Most of these "blockchains" are just distributed databases, which are not trustless, decentralized et…

It wasn't even Satoshi who came up with the proof of work mechanism, it's from Hashcash which was invented in the 90s. What he did do though was have the good sense to connect the two concepts!

PoW is not from Hashcash and wasn't invented by Back. PoW was first formally conceptualized in 1992 in the paper "Pricing via Processing, Or, Combatting Junk Mail, Advances in Cryptology" by Cynthia Dwork and Moni Naor. Hashcash was proposed 5 years later, in 1997.

Satoshi is the first one to come up with a way to leverage PoW into a permissionless and global consensus mechanism instead of solely being a cryptoeconomic spam filter.

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#55
> The term has become so widespread that it’s quickly losing meaning.

I mean, that's how language works, right? Words mean things at certain points of time and then over time those things sometimes change and new words appear to better distinguish between the new things. Or words get contextualized within a specific industry and take on different meanings depending on your perspective.

Such an evolution does not mean a word is "meaningless" it just indicates you'll have to provide more context in order to communicate your idea, which, again, is how language works.

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#56
post #42
post #30

git has been using a blockchain for the last 12 years, since long before Bitcoin: Each commit includes the hash of its parent commit. These commits form a chain. Changing the contents of any past commit would break the chain. Each user of the repository keeps a copy of the blockchain on their PC, and they can fetch new "blocks" from any other peer with `git fetch` or `git pull`. The consensus model is based on human…

>long before Bitcoin To be fair, bitcoin is only about 37 months younger than git. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin

Other version control systems existed decades before git with similar principles (like CVS).

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#57
post #30

git has been using a blockchain for the last 12 years, since long before Bitcoin: Each commit includes the hash of its parent commit. These commits form a chain. Changing the contents of any past commit would break the chain. Each user of the repository keeps a copy of the blockchain on their PC, and they can fetch new "blocks" from any other peer with `git fetch` or `git pull`. The consensus model is based on human…

> The consensus model is based on human review of the underlying code; humans get to decide whether to include a block in their version of the repository.

Since git commits can easily be signed (and IMO should be most of the time), when I explain this I usually try to describe the consensus algorithm as being based on a set of known valid signers which I think further helps bridge the gap for people that understand "proof of authority" chains.

https://github.com/paritytech/parity/wiki/Proof-of-Authority...

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#58

In general, if the transactions are gathered together in blocks, and it is blocks that are secured on the chain using cryptography, and it is designed to be tamper-resistant and produce immutable records, the system qualifies as a blockchain That works for me.

"designed to be tamper-resistant and produce immutable records" is really the only thing important here as far as most people are concerned. The part about chaining blocks of data together is an implementation detail that may or may not last long term.

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#59
post #14

The blockchain hype is crazy. My favorite truism that I see people spouting is that Bitcoin (or cryptocurrencies are) is worthless, but blockchain is a huge innovation. Little do these people understand that the true innovation is Bitcoin's proof of work as a consensus mechanism with the economic incentive of mining. Most of these "blockchains" are just distributed databases, which are not trustless, decentralized et…

Yeah it's really weird to me because while you can do cool things with blockchains, on their own they're just a data structure. Without a trustless, decentralized, and permissionless consensus model it's basically just a big git repo. The blockcahin data structure, a tree of blocks of state changes, is not at all a recent innovation. And not something that would typically get hyped by the average non-programming rela…

When people use the term blockchain they don't just mean a chain of state changes, they mean one that is backed by the sort of decentralized consensus model you described. The nomenclature isn't ideal, but the convenience of having one word to describe a somewhat complex topic wins out.

I mean even the Wikipedia article on blockchain treats it this way [1], mentioning the consensus model in the initial blurb, and asserting that Satoshi invented the blockchain.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain

Re: ‘Blockchain’ is meaningless

#60
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't even Satoshi who came up with the proof of work mechanism, it's from Hashcash which was invented in the 90s. What he did do though was have the good sense to connect the two concepts!

PoW is not from Hashcash and wasn't invented by Back. PoW was first formally conceptualized in 1992 in the paper "Pricing via Processing, Or, Combatting Junk Mail, Advances in Cryptology" by Cynthia Dwork and Moni Naor. Hashcash was proposed 5 years later, in 1997. Satoshi is the first one to come up with a way to leverage PoW into a permissionless and global consensus mechanism instead of solely being a cryptoeconom…

Thanks for the clarification, good to know.
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