Time to use Discord
I've used Slack as part of a few organizations. If I'm starting my own ad-hoc technical organization, is there any reason not to use Discord? Seems to have all the features I need.
Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
71–80 of 624 posts
Re: Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
#72Everybody here is disappointed at Slack, and I like open protocols and open platforms just like everybody else, but I still have a contrarian view. Instead of blaming Slack, why not accept that the open protocols indeed suck? IRC does not specify encoding, netsplits are a common issue, file sending sucks, etc. XMPP also has file sending problems, does not play nice with mobile, is fragmented (not every client impleme…
> Why not accept that there are legit technical reasons why existing open protocols are unacceptable?
I can think of a few features, in a few open protocols that started out as "open" but proprietary - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest being the most well known.
> Stop complaining about companies not adopting open protocols and do something. Dominate the world using open protocols, then the walled garden companies will follow. It is not easy, it may even feel wrong, but it is the only way.
This, this is sage advice, this is what needs to happen, and we need to just take the time to do it. I am at the point where I think I'm ready to become a Stallman like zealot in my almost golden years.
Re: Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
#73Everybody here is disappointed at Slack, and I like open protocols and open platforms just like everybody else, but I still have a contrarian view. Instead of blaming Slack, why not accept that the open protocols indeed suck? IRC does not specify encoding, netsplits are a common issue, file sending sucks, etc. XMPP also has file sending problems, does not play nice with mobile, is fragmented (not every client impleme…
email is an open protocol and works great. you can add pgp on top of it if you want security
Re: Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
#74Everybody here is disappointed at Slack, and I like open protocols and open platforms just like everybody else, but I still have a contrarian view. Instead of blaming Slack, why not accept that the open protocols indeed suck? IRC does not specify encoding, netsplits are a common issue, file sending sucks, etc. XMPP also has file sending problems, does not play nice with mobile, is fragmented (not every client impleme…
In addition to sucking in technical ways, the current set of open protocols probably could stand to leave more room for innovation. Chat is a really hot area in the industry right now, and people are trying all kinds of different things with it. Team-oriented stuff, smart threading, different forms of addressing (find people by mobile phone number instead of account name), and plenty more I'm not even aware of. An open solution would have a better shot if it has a way to not only solve problems well but also evolve and incorporate new features and ideas.
Another issue is that social platforms serve as a unique kind of directory service. It turns out that how good a chat system is at allowing you to find contacts to chat with might be just as important as how good it is at actually chatting with them.
Re: Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
#75Everybody here is disappointed at Slack, and I like open protocols and open platforms just like everybody else, but I still have a contrarian view. Instead of blaming Slack, why not accept that the open protocols indeed suck? IRC does not specify encoding, netsplits are a common issue, file sending sucks, etc. XMPP also has file sending problems, does not play nice with mobile, is fragmented (not every client impleme…
> XMPP [...] is fragmented (not every client implements desired extensions), etc.
How much I hate this "X is fragmented" argument. When two pieces of software that speak a common set of core protocols and thus can achieve at least some level of interoperability, but there is no perfect feature parity, then OH HORROR, IT IS FRAGMENTED!!1111 The obvious solution? Use a product that does not interoperate with absolutely anything at all ...
Next people are going to claim that you should learn some random endangered language instead of English to avoid the "fragmentation" due to the numerous dialects, I guess.
Re: Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
#76Is Mattermost a viable alternative, and is it possible to bridge it with IRC and XMPP?
Re: Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
#77I'm very disappointed to see that Slack has decided to go the way of every other messaging service and move away from decentralized and standardized protocols towards those that are walled and proprietary. > We are focused on making Slack accessible to all people. Over the past year, we've made great progress in improving both the keyboard and screen reading experiences in Slack. We know many users have been relying…
Moxie Marlinspike has a blog post about why protocols like XMPP aren't good enough to support modern messaging apps. https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/
XMPP is an example of a federated protocol that advertises itself as a “living standard.” Despite its capacity for protocol “extensions,” however, it’s undeniable that XMPP still largely resembles a synchronous protocol with limited support for rich media, which can’t realistically be deployed on mobile devices. If XMPP is so extensible, why haven’t those extensions quickly brought it up to speed with the modern world?
Like any federated protocol, extensions don’t mean much unless everyone applies them, and that’s an almost impossible task in a truly federated landscape. What we have instead is a complicated morass of XEPs that aren’t consistently applied anywhere. The implications of that are severe, because someone’s choice to use an XMPP client or server that doesn’t support video or some other arbitrary feature doesn’t only affect them, it affects everyone who tries to communicate with them. It creates a climate of uncertainty, never knowing whether things will work or not. In the consumer space, fractured client support is often worse than no client support at all, because consistency is incredibly important for creating a compelling user experience.
Re: Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
#78Everybody here is disappointed at Slack, and I like open protocols and open platforms just like everybody else, but I still have a contrarian view. Instead of blaming Slack, why not accept that the open protocols indeed suck? IRC does not specify encoding, netsplits are a common issue, file sending sucks, etc. XMPP also has file sending problems, does not play nice with mobile, is fragmented (not every client impleme…
Netsplits apply to networks, not gateways. From Slack's perspective, supporting IRC is relatively simple: send messages in UTF-8 and "send" files by sending the URL that Slack's uploading service produces.
IRC does have a lot of deficiencies, but they're well-understood and the client environment has adapted to them.
Re: Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
#79Everybody here is disappointed at Slack, and I like open protocols and open platforms just like everybody else, but I still have a contrarian view. Instead of blaming Slack, why not accept that the open protocols indeed suck? IRC does not specify encoding, netsplits are a common issue, file sending sucks, etc. XMPP also has file sending problems, does not play nice with mobile, is fragmented (not every client impleme…
Agreed. I have never had as good of an experience with IRC or XMPP as I have with slack. Open protocols are still great for open communities, internet discussion boards, etc. but when you're a multi-billion dollar messaging platform and companies are using you for critical communication I don't see any reason to continue supporting them. They've actually gone a step further and put the accessibility features in slack and upgraded their api to support things people used to do on the irc channels.
Re: Tell HN: Slack decides to close down IRC and XMPP gateways
#80Of course they do. This is exactly the path Google took. Once you achieve enough power in the market, you can throw open protocols overboard. It's a symptom of the centralized world the internet has become.
XMPP support did very little to grow whatever power Google has in the chat market. Traffic to federated services and use of third party clients was low.
Maybe the number of clients were low, but they were the early adopters that the small companies need, but big companies hate (as early adopters have very different requirements).