Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#201

Post by nvahalik » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 10:55 PM UTC

dizzystar wrote: post #185

nvahalik wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the main problem with the personal care assistant isn’t so much the pay is so low but rather it’s hard for people to actually pay someone full time (or even part time) to care for someone.

A full-time care taker is also often living in the house. So, even if they are are only getting paid $22k, that money isn't really going to any expenses. They are likely getting paid more than that anyways.

I'm not sure how "often" but some do.

There might be people with special arrangements but if you are like the people I interact with then you probably engage with an assisted living agency for anywhere from $18-$30/hr. Let's take the low number as an example. $18 * 24 * 365 = $157.7K per year. How many people can afford $150k just for care? Not very many.

And $18/hr is on the very low end of the spectrum. If you're at $30+/hr that's $250K+ on up not including medical, insurance, etc. IME, caretakers are normally paid out-of-pocket, too. It's expensive business, especially if you have to do it for any period of time.

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#202

Post by LethargicStud » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 10:57 PM UTC

iak8god wrote: post #135

LethargicStud wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, the idea of stifling innovation to "preserve jobs" is harmful to society. Upon choosing a career, you should consider the longevity of that career. Some people will still pick wrong for a multitude of reasons. Hopefully, those people can pivot. It is unreasonable to hold the entire population back to continue employing those in a specific field. If we consistently did that, we'd be in the stone age and our…

> Upon choosing a career, you should consider the longevity of that career. Isn't it lucky we humans are so very good at predicting the future!? When I was taking computer vision courses little more than a decade ago, self driving cars were pure science fiction. Part of me hopes software development is the next job we automate away, just so everyone in forums like this who are so impressed with their own excellent li…

> Some people will still pick wrong for a multitude of reasons. Hopefully, those people can pivot.

We are lucky as software engineers, but I was also making the point that if your line of work gets automated, hopefully you can pivot. This applies to everyone, and is similar to when you are no longer enjoying your field of work. Changing careers is not always an option, but let's not forget that it usually is when we talk about automating an entire industry and putting them out of work.

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#203

Post by nordsieck » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 11:03 PM UTC

ambicapter wrote: post #194

bobthepanda wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue has actually been prioritization. In Europe the rails are fast and well-maintained, which is great for passenger operation but expensive for very heavy freight operations. Passenger operations are also prioritized very heavily at the expense of freight operations on the rail network. In comparison, the US rail network is slow and low quality, which makes freight operations extremely attractive but is a…

Why is slow and low quality rail great for freight?

Low maintenance costs mean cheap transport. Coal doesn't care if the trip takes an extra day.

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#204

Post by DoubleCribble » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 11:06 PM UTC

nopinsight wrote: post #8

For those concerned with jobs to be eliminated, it might not be as big a problem as we think for the trucking industry. "Over the next 10 years, he said, we need to attract almost 900,000 new people to the industry. Demographics is a big part of the problem. ATA’s research arm, the American Transportation Research Institute, recently updated its demographic data on drivers and found some 57% of drivers are 45 or olde…

>much need for humans to take care of the maintenance of the trucks

Is that really true? It seems electric trucks[0] quickly follow from autonomous trucks and from what I understand, electric vehicles are mechanically much simpler. That leaves truck operators with not much need for a greasemonkey wrenching on a transmission when there is a) little/no grease[1] and b) no transmission[2].

Tire & body shops are about the only maintenance jobs I can think of that won't be reduced/eliminated by the coming changes.

[0]https://www.tesla.com/semi [1]https://www.mckinseyenergyinsights.com/insights/impact-of-el... [2]https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a120190...

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#205

Post by icebraining » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 11:08 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #34

TorKlingberg wrote: post #31

I assume these self-driving trucks still have a human driver in them. So, which exact parts are self-driving? Is it like Tesla's autopilot where it does lane following, cruise control and keeping the distance on highways?

> So, which exact parts are self-driving? Just enough of it that they can skirt the DOT hour rules about hours worked while still blaming the driver for any crashes or tickets would be my guess. That's the obvious lowest hanging fruit as far as trucking is concerned. If you can automate enough of the long haul grind that the driver could possibly be sleeping then you have a massive competitive advantage over everyone…

I don't think you can skirt them. Time on-duty counts against their daily limit even if they're not driving (the example given in an official guide is a trucker taking a bus to get to the truck), so they must still get a proper rest afterwards. So Uber can't count the "not driving but watching the road" as time off.

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#206

Post by EggsOnToast » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 11:10 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #159

EggsOnToast wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those numbers make sense at a glance. A truck driver, despite the popular image, more closely resembles specialized work than un-specialized. There are specific skill and documentation requirements to become a Truck driver. The healthcare work you linked to just requires a high-school diploma and no certs, if it's a job like caring for the elderly then the main factor driving up the wage is a shortage of people willi…

You start by saying how a personal care assistant is rather unspecialized work and then go on to ruminate on the peculiarities of the job that most people wouldn't want to deal with. Why isn't trucking an unskilled job just with negative features (long hours alone, danger to health given the erratic hours) too?

>You start by saying how a personal care assistant is rather unspecialized work and then go on to ruminate on the peculiarities of the job that most people wouldn't want to deal with.

Correct. Being willing to endure undesirable work isn't usually included in the definition of skilled labor unless that tenacity is accompanied by another requisite skill or certification. I'm not trying to argue that it isn't a socially valuable skill, just that given the bar for entry it isn't surprising the wage is that low.

>Why isn't trucking an unskilled job just with negative features (long hours alone, danger to health given the erratic hours) too?

Because you've skipped over the training and licensing required to legally operate as a truck driver. You need a Commercial Drivers License if nothing else and many states require the completion of specialized courses before awarding an applicant their CDL. That CDL represents a specialized skill-set without which a person simply won't be permitted to operate as a trucker. Physical endurance and mental tenacity are critical traits in this instance too but they're far from being enough to get you hired.

Edit: Something else I glossed over, but which seems relevant because this is predominantly a tech oriented forum is that the average Cost of Living in America is in line with the wage being paid to the Home Health Aide. It might not be enough for San Francisco or a coastal area, but it's enough in general to pay rent and save some money on the side for additional schooling or whatever purpose appeals.

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#207

Post by askafriend » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 11:14 PM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #177

knieveltech wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What feelings? Do we seriously need to review Uber's conduct? We over here pretending their corporate culture has shifted to something approximating ethical behavior now?

No, I'm not trying to excuse Uber or say that they're some amazing benevolent company. All I'm saying that I think, if you're going to make a claim like above it at least comes with a source or something relevant to the claim itself to point at as proof. But look, if that's too much to ask for on Hacker News then fine.

I think you were right to call him/her out. Comments like that have no place here.

Level headed conversation with references and sources if possible are what I come here for and I think what the community expects.

The other stuff can stay on Reddit.

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#208

Post by Aloha » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #129

ktpsns wrote: post #92

The funny thing in this US-centric view is that we have such a cargo since a century where trains play the role of "self-driving cargo". In europe, the decline of cargo on tracks (trains) is also partially owed to subsidiation of automobile traffic and highway expansions. It is a pity, because from the raw numbers trains are much less expensive then tracks.

The main issue has actually been prioritization. In Europe the rails are fast and well-maintained, which is great for passenger operation but expensive for very heavy freight operations. Passenger operations are also prioritized very heavily at the expense of freight operations on the rail network. In comparison, the US rail network is slow and low quality, which makes freight operations extremely attractive but is a…

not build for high speed operation != low quality.

High Speed Rail is just a different style of construction, etc - but quality is subjective.

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#209

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #195

stcredzero wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a pity, because from the raw numbers trains are much less expensive then tracks. Often, the flexibility and reduced latency of freight by truck is worth the increased per-mile cost.

Freight by truck is worth it because of flexibility and reduced latency, flexibility and reduced latency are worth it because of just-in-time production, just-in-time production is worth it because of less inventory, less inventory is worth it because of less money locked up in inventory, less money locked up in inventory is worth it because of better cash flow on the quarterly reports, better cash flow on the quarte…

We might just find out the things we thought are worth it, are not really.

Then give a concrete quantification of that. It's a very complex question. Entire careers have been built on how to price something complex. That's called "economics."

Re: Uber self-driving trucks are now moving cargo for Uber Freight customers

#210

Post by kirykl » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 11:17 PM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #109

kirykl wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Railroads have monopoly pricing power, this opens the door to competition

It opens the door to some company buying up the roads, and then you're right back to where you started.

Private highways are already a thing