MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies • Hacker News Board

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#211

Post by Bartweiss » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #75

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is this kind of "growth hack" not simply dumping[1]? "Dumping" is bad because it harms unsubsidized competitors. (It also pits foreign governments against private companies.) I fail to see who MoviePass hurt except its own investors. > Can healthy, truly profitable technology companies develop in an environment where they have to compete with startups that are ready and willing to undercut them by losing tons o…

>"Dumping" is bad because it harms unsubsidized competitors. (It also pits foreign governments against private companies.) I fail to see who MoviePass hurt except its own investors. Everyone who might have started a competing company but did the math to figure out they would have to charge more? >Lyft seems to be doing fine. Hasn't Lyft been spending billions of dollars without posting a profit just like Uber?

> might have started a competing company

Point well taken, but in the case of MoviePass I'm not sure this is a bad thing?

I can see how it's a long-term harm if a value-adding startup is shut out by a competitor which relies on burning investor money. But I really can't work out what value-added startup MoviePass could be displacing; effectively the only benefit for consumers is the artificially low pricing. It seems like "VC money pit" is the entire story for this one.

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#212

Post by Bartweiss » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

drusepth wrote: post #203

z_open wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it also useful to be contributing to the apathy that our privacy, as a society, isn't worth protecting?

This is a pretty close-minded view on the pros vs cons of sharing any kind of data in return for benefits you value over that raw data.

A negative view, sure. But 'close-minded' implies it's an unexamined decision, and that's certainly not the case for me or many other HN users.

My essential stance on data-gathering (and especially location data or communication metadata) is that it represents an irreversible erosion of privacy, and in many cases compromises the privacy of other people who never consented to share their data.

I've used services that (effectively) traded my data for cash, but I think there's a compelling argument that ill-defined location monitoring is underestimated as a personal risk and acutely underestimated as a source of externalities. This is up for debate, certainly, but 'close-minded' seems to presume the answer and deny the possibility of those externalities.

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#213

Post by Bartweiss » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

comboy wrote: post #26

lghh wrote: post #15

I'm really over trying to fight companies on this on an app-by-app basis. If we want this to stop, it has to be through legislation. Either we allow companies to do it and stop acting shocked when it happens, or we legislate the possibility away.

I prefer non-legislative way. Mobile OSes are already doing something towards this. Notification warning like "app X is using your GPS" - even though it's closed or even though your screen is off. Or only allowing GPS usage while the app is on your screen. I don't think many people care though. And even if you disagree on that, I think it should be their right to sell their privacy for convenience if they want to.

I definitely have complaints about the existing business models of companies that do this, like opaque (or outright dishonest) TOS. But I agree that privacy legislation is far from the only obvious answer.

Ideally, I'd have control over the location data my phone provides at the active-app, installed-app, and total-shutoff levels. I don't actually mind giving out location data, I just want to know and make a choice when it happens. Fortunately, iOS is rapidly headed that way, and Android has made some promising moves.

I do think there's a slightly scarier conversation to be had about the externalities of "selling privacy", though. The Facebook 'shadow profile' situation is the obvious demonstration, but far from the scariest possibility. The possibility of building up a near-comprehensive profile of someone from other people's location, image, and messaging data raises real questions about what it even means to talk about 'personal privacy' in any public setting.

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#214

Post by vorpalhex » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #187

thevardanian wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People going to theaters is on the decline. If MoviePass reverses that trend they will have shown their value. I'm going to wager they're at a tipping point.

Theatres will have to find some other way to draw crowds, or they will be replaced by stores and restaurants that make more money per unit area. I suspect if they do find some other way, it will be based on some relatively new technology (perhaps already existing, like smartphones, or up-and-coming like some kind of AR), or it would have happened already. I've been trying to thing of a movie theatre / lan party combo…

There's a theater chain in my area that is always crowded and does really well: Alamo Drafthouse.

Their pitch? Pretty much comes down to good service including food and cocktails, at low prices, and a no-noise policy.

You buy a ticket ahead of time picking your exact seats. Tickets are about $11. The pre-show instead of being ads are usually short videos or clips from earlier movies. Food is around $12-16 an entree, alcoholic beverages are between $6 and $20 with most cocktails around $12.

Oh, and if they see your phone or if you're talking during the movie, you get kicked out with the option to be banned.

It's an amazing movie experience, and I regularly go at least once a month. Their food is genuinely good restaurant quality and their drinks are creative, often times with special cocktails or entrees to go along with big releases. It's obviously not an every day thing, but it's cheap enough to be a once a week kind of thing.

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#215

Post by paulcole » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:38 PM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #133

paulcole wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they ask for your permission to use your pictures and you give it, it shouldn't matter what they're doing. You could've said no and opted to not use their service.

It very much can and does matter. Asking for access to my photos so I can send one through a messaging service is hugely different than simply wanting to suck up all data about me. I cannot wait until the US gets a privacy law like the new EU one. Then they would have to absolutely justify why they're collecting that.

> Asking for access to my photos so I can send one through a messaging service

MoviePass is not a messaging service though.

If they ask permission for your photos and you give it, you live with the consequences. Or you value your privacy more than MoviePass and choose to not use the service.

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#216

Post by taurath » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 7:09 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #183

taurath wrote: post #167

This is why a company "privacy policy" doesn't mean anything - they can change it with no warning or just plain lie about it. The only purpose is to placate their users.

Maybe that's true in say the US, or some states in the US, but it isn't true everywhere. The EU is probably the biggest counterexample, with relatively strong privacy and data protection rules already, and almost draconian new rules for organisations that are working with personal data coming into effect later this year with the GDPR. A privacy policy is a part of the rules there, and misleading with one could get yo…

Given the state of data management throughout the US and the world, I welcome some draconian rules if they actually protect people's data.

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#217

Post by s73v3r_ » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 7:12 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #215

s73v3r_ wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It very much can and does matter. Asking for access to my photos so I can send one through a messaging service is hugely different than simply wanting to suck up all data about me. I cannot wait until the US gets a privacy law like the new EU one. Then they would have to absolutely justify why they're collecting that.

> Asking for access to my photos so I can send one through a messaging service MoviePass is not a messaging service though. If they ask permission for your photos and you give it, you live with the consequences. Or you value your privacy more than MoviePass and choose to not use the service.

No. That is not a response; that is not a rebuttal; that is a nothing comment. You have added less than nothing to the conversation.

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#218

Post by yazan94 » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #149

AlexandrB wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This can be used to excuse the worst kind of behaviour. Maybe if MoviePass can't operate profitably without violating people's privacy, it's just not a good startup idea.

But since a million people are happy to sell their location data for movie tickets, it is a good startup idea. To say otherwise an excuse to restrict other users' freedom, a pretty bad behavior.

> But since a million people are happy to sell their location data for movie tickets, it is a good startup idea. To say otherwise an excuse to restrict other users' freedom, a pretty bad behavior.

It is a different story if they are upfront with what MoviePass is using it's users' location data for.

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#219

Post by passivepinetree » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #193

passivepinetree wrote: post #4

The way TechCrunch presents this, it seems even shadier than Uber's "we'll track you for the 5 minutes after you get dropped off" tactic from last year. With no language addressing such tracking in the EULA, how is that legal?

> Uber's "we'll track you for the 5 minutes after you get dropped off" Ah, is this how Uber knows my preferred pickup point near my condo? It's an excellent feature.

Yeah, I believe the rationale was to know better where entrances and exits are to certain buildings. The idea is a good one, but many people were up in arms about tracking that wasn't expressly during the interaction with Uber the company.

Re: MoviePass CEO says the app tracks your location before and after movies

#220

Post by dionidium » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

z_open wrote: post #209

dionidium wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cons are an infringement on our privacy. You have to explain why I'm supposed to care that MoviePass knows where I am when I'm near a theater (i.e. why is this a con ). You're acting like this is obvious, but it's not. All your work is ahead of you.

Because they give that information to 3rd parties who have a larger database about you in which to add it. Privacy is a basic human right and everyone wants it. You wouldn't willingly offer all data about yourself and livestream a camera of yourself 24/7 for everyone to see. I also already gave you a reason on how this harms people who don't want to give up any data on themselves.

The degree is the difference and it's a big one. We all trade privacy for other benefits all the time. If the right to privacy is fundamental, then surely I can claim the right to trade that privacy for something else, too.

(Note: we all do this all the time in both explicit and implicit ways. We give away private data to obtain loans, we invite people into our homes and to view our bodies, we tell important secrets to build relationships. Privacy is valuable, and we use it like it's valuable. That's what's going on here, too.)