How can families afford children? • Hacker News Board

Re: How can families afford children?

#11

Post by sudhirj » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

This is re. India, but might also apply to other developing countries - public school is not an option. Because the public school system is so abysmal, it is used mostly by the very poor who have no other choice. Sending your kids to private schools is a fundamental aspiration, one that is realized even with single mothers who work as maids / domestic help.

This point along puts a huge cost on having children, even for people below or just around the poverty line. When sex was the only recreation option available with no known birth control methods, lots of kids was the norm. That has changed now, though. People at all levels of society know that raising a child with an semblance of upward mobility is expensive, and logarithmically so - the good private schools are 10X more expensive than the regular ones, with the international schools going to 100X.

Breaking the norms is difficult, but it looks like the country is already tending towards a voluntary one child policy, at least for any parents that hope their children will live better than they did.

Re: How can families afford children?

#12

Post by ppeetteerr » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #3

jawns wrote: post #2

It used to be that having a large number of children was more important to your family's survival. Childhood mortality was higher, and children often contributed to the family business. My dad was one of 11 born to a farming family, and the kids were expected to help operate the farm. I happen to know a bunch of large families (7+ kids), and I think the common thread among them is: * The choice to be open to more chi…

I have 5 kids. As you say, there are a lot of things we don't do. There are not individual sports that we rush one kid to and then another for different kid. Often we pick full family activities, like swimming (or swim team) where 2-3 kids can all participate together, and the other kids can still have fun. We also don't live in a high cost-of-living area, so housing costs are [somewhat] low. Also child care, we made…

Curious why you wanted 5 kids. Seems like a large number these days.

Re: How can families afford children?

#13

Post by CalRobert » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

craig1f wrote: post #5

"Jobs for women are higher-paying and more satisfying than ever before, and that raises the opportunity cost of having large families" This is not true. Depending on the wife for income prevents her from focusing on having a large family. Without the assistance of a grandparent or some expensive nanny, this tends to limit the number of children in the family to 2 or 3. Also, women working has driven the price of hous…

"Not to mention how expensive large vans/suvs are to actually drive them around. "

Just driving is pretty expensive. Not owning a car saves loads. Unfortunately, it usually takes a lot of money to live somewhere that doesn't require one.

Also worth noting - my wife would be at home with the kid right now (I have a much higher income) except she has substantial student debt, so off to work she goes. This means paying for creche too.

We couldn't afford creche fees for two kids, and she can't afford not to work due to aforementioned debt.

Also we had a kid because we were approaching mid thirties and it was a now or never thing, but it would have been nice to get a home big enough for two kids (a 3 bed apartment, or a bigger 2 bedroom apartment, would suffice) but the numbers don't add up.

Re: How can families afford children?

#14

Post by ppeetteerr » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

andy_adams wrote: post #10

The article focuses on very utilitarian ways of thinking of a family, which is a sad way to look at kids. I know lots of large families - many who are extremely poor - who are the happiest people I know. The difference being that they've made their family their source of joy, and don't look somewhere else to find fulfillment. I'm writing this in case someone reads this article and thinks "well, the math doesn't suppo…

I can only imagine that those couples with a lot of children find happiness in having many. It's not that large families make people the happiest. Just want to clarify in case some depressed person thinks they will cure their depression with many, many kids.

Re: How can families afford children?

#15

Post by jeffreyrogers » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

andy_adams wrote: post #10

The article focuses on very utilitarian ways of thinking of a family, which is a sad way to look at kids. I know lots of large families - many who are extremely poor - who are the happiest people I know. The difference being that they've made their family their source of joy, and don't look somewhere else to find fulfillment. I'm writing this in case someone reads this article and thinks "well, the math doesn't suppo…

The author is not as utilitarian as he appears, but you have to be familiar with him and his prior writing to realize this, so I can see why you'd think that.

Re: How can families afford children?

#16

Post by bmcusick » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

Globally, the main thing is that married families have transitioned from small farm cooperatives (where the husband works the fields and the wife in the house) to market-based work for both of them. The problem with market based work is that it's usually incompatible with keeping one eye on small children, unlike the household chores of a farm. Also, kids are pure burdens until they can join the market themselves, whereas farm kids could help collect eggs and feed chickens starting pretty young.

In America at least the cost disease of education, housing, and healthcare all make it worse, but the first part is the primary culprit. And I'm not sure there's any fix for it besides long parental leaves and subsidized childcare.

Re: How can families afford children?

#17

Post by aantix » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

ppeetteerr wrote: post #12

cwbrandsma wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 5 kids. As you say, there are a lot of things we don't do. There are not individual sports that we rush one kid to and then another for different kid. Often we pick full family activities, like swimming (or swim team) where 2-3 kids can all participate together, and the other kids can still have fun. We also don't live in a high cost-of-living area, so housing costs are [somewhat] low. Also child care, we made…

Curious why you wanted 5 kids. Seems like a large number these days.

I'm not the OP that you were asking, but I do want to chime in.

My wife and I make a pretty good team. Even the most tense arguments eventually get resolved with a laugh.

We have three boys, we're probably going to have a fourth. We feel we have a lot of love to give. And giving someone life is the ultimate pay-it-forward act of gratitude. My parents did it for me. If I can give a few children life and send them out into the world with a good grounding, my life is a win.

Re: How can families afford children?

#18

Post by klipt » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #13

craig1f wrote: post #5

"Jobs for women are higher-paying and more satisfying than ever before, and that raises the opportunity cost of having large families" This is not true. Depending on the wife for income prevents her from focusing on having a large family. Without the assistance of a grandparent or some expensive nanny, this tends to limit the number of children in the family to 2 or 3. Also, women working has driven the price of hous…

"Not to mention how expensive large vans/suvs are to actually drive them around. " Just driving is pretty expensive. Not owning a car saves loads. Unfortunately, it usually takes a lot of money to live somewhere that doesn't require one. Also worth noting - my wife would be at home with the kid right now (I have a much higher income) except she has substantial student debt, so off to work she goes. This means paying…

> Not owning a car saves loads. Unfortunately, it usually takes a lot of money to live somewhere that doesn't require one.

In America perhaps. Europeans seem to manage, generally on lower salaries than Americans...

Re: How can families afford children?

#19

Post by setr » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

craig1f wrote: post #5

"Jobs for women are higher-paying and more satisfying than ever before, and that raises the opportunity cost of having large families" This is not true. Depending on the wife for income prevents her from focusing on having a large family. Without the assistance of a grandparent or some expensive nanny, this tends to limit the number of children in the family to 2 or 3. Also, women working has driven the price of hous…

I have the feeling that even with a full-time housewife, having lots of children still goes hand-in-hand with multi-generation families living together. I can't reasonably imagine dealing with 6 kids without uncle/aunt/grandmother around too

Re: How can families afford children?

#20

Post by dpark » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #13

craig1f wrote: post #5

"Jobs for women are higher-paying and more satisfying than ever before, and that raises the opportunity cost of having large families" This is not true. Depending on the wife for income prevents her from focusing on having a large family. Without the assistance of a grandparent or some expensive nanny, this tends to limit the number of children in the family to 2 or 3. Also, women working has driven the price of hous…

"Not to mention how expensive large vans/suvs are to actually drive them around. " Just driving is pretty expensive. Not owning a car saves loads. Unfortunately, it usually takes a lot of money to live somewhere that doesn't require one. Also worth noting - my wife would be at home with the kid right now (I have a much higher income) except she has substantial student debt, so off to work she goes. This means paying…

Does your wife’s work actually offset the cost of childcare? I ask because you say your income is much higher than hers but you cannot afford a three bedroom apartment. This seems to imply that her income is quite low.

I know a number of families who ran the numbers and found out that the second income didn’t offset the cost of childcare. Or if it did, the excess income was so low as to be negligible. Don’t forget that there are tax implications to having a second income.