Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised • Hacker News Board

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#241

Post by rayiner » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

marnett wrote: post #212

rayiner wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We" (the government) didn't build it or pay for it. Even back in the AT&T monopoly era it was always private infrastructure.[1] AT&T got certain rights ( e.g. easements) but that also came with a lot of strings attached (they had to build in a bunch of rural places they never would've built otherwise). Public ownership of the wires was never part of the bargain. [1] The same is true for power lines. They're mostly p…

> We" (the government) didn't build it or pay for it. This is not and has not ever been true. Here [1] is an open auction with ~$2 billion in federal aid attached - "a total of $1.98 billion for 10 years." This was last updated just over a week ago. I would dig further back for other subsidies, but it is not necessary. Through tax breaks and subsidies we (the government, tax payers, etc) have certainly aided infrastr…

The Connect America Fund is funded through a special tax on telcos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Service_Fund#Connect.... It's likes taxing cell phone companies to provide free phones for low-income people. Yes, some cell phone companies will end up getting "subsidies" but companies like AT&T (or Apple) would be net payors. And whether or not you call that a "subsidy" in rural areas, everywhere outside of rural areas it's the opposite of "subsidized." The taxes that pay for CAF make service in urban areas more expensive, thus decreasing demand and revenue. Municipalities also treat telecom service as a revenue source (a tax of 5% of gross revenue is typical). And there's all the extra obligations, like build-out requirements.

There was some tax dollar funded subsidies in the ARRA, but it's a vanishingly small fraction of the trillion+ dollars invested in telecom infrastructure in the last few decades.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#242

Post by rtkwe » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

sireat wrote: post #199

apeace wrote: post #175

As you can surmise by reading this article, the rise of the wireless ISPs (or WISPs) is not because the wireless technology is better or drastically cheaper. It's because in so many places, the incumbents are able to prevent you from building out fiber. They simply haven't developed the weapons to destroy the WISPs yet, but unless the political climate in states/cities changes, they will. It is tough for WISPs to com…

Speaking of latency: a well calibrated point to point wireless connection is less latency than fiber jumping a bunch of switches. Proof: finance industry's wide use of microwave towers. https://meanderful.blogspot.com/2017/05/lines-radios-and-cab... There was another set of articles describing microwave towers in Europe, quite fascinating. Not sure if this was the one: https://sniperinmahwah.wordpress.com/2014/09/22/…

The reason they're faster isn't so much that as they're geographically more direct. The older fiber networks were already pretty optimized for latency at the network level to the point that the last place to make any real gains was physically shortening the connections. That's hard with fiber because you have to get agreements along the whole route to dig and bury the fiber where microwave links only need periodic installations.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#243

Post by username223 » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #224

username223 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't completely agree with this argument, but... All of that money came from somewhere. Do you wonder why most of your local retailers went out of business, and you can't visit a local bookstore or camera shop anymore? It's related to why Jeff Bezos has so much money that he has nothing better to do than shoot stuff into space. Preferably, he will shoot bigger stuff farther than Elon Musk, Richard Branson, or Paul…

If anything, shooting cars into space makes them spend money they have on people that dont have money and build the car. Adam Smith directly says vanity is what took down feudalism. We surely dont want our billionaires to not even spend the money they have!

Please see "I don't completely agree with this argument..."

Printing money and setting it on fire would employ printers and firefighters. I'm not sure Billionaire Space Wars are a net harm to society, but they're pretty silly.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#244

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #239

stcredzero wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They simply haven't developed the weapons to destroy the WISPs yet, but unless the political climate in states/cities changes, they will. Basically, authoritarianism rears its ugly head in the US once again, across corporate, national, state, and local levels. The same general kind of gaming of the system which resulted in interstates dividing white from non-white neighborhoods is now maintaining the media status quo…

"...now wielded by the Far Left..." What is my tribe accused of this time? My peeps are trying to expand broadband, so I guess none of us got the memo.

What is my tribe accused of this time?

Kicking out groups that don't hew to the party-line on YouTube. Not only the genuinely far-right, but also moderates, mainstream Republicans, and various sub-cultural enthusiasts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTI4Bm5OxkU

My peeps are trying to expand broadband, so I guess none of us got the memo.

As I referenced above, old-media interests and local interests oppose the expansion of broadband (as well as broadly defined Net Neutrality) in order to preserve an old-media status quo. Google Fiber, had it been successful, would have been a competitive force against this, destroying the barriers which keep Cable and old-media from being completely washed away. If "your peeps" had succeeded, I suspect "Adpocalypse" wouldn't have happened. YouTube and the like would have done something about ISIS videos, stopped around there, then told the mainstream corporate ad-money to just deal with the rest or go screw. As it is, the status-quo corporate money is being used as leverage against new media through YouTube.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#245

Post by rayiner » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #232

rayiner wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analysis is backwards. There aren't special laws that "make it difficult for new companies to hang wires." The issue was not Google hanging its own wires, but Google contractors moving AT&T's wires in order to make space on the poles. Louisville passed special laws to enable one company to relocate another company's property on utility poles. I think those laws are a good idea, but its hard to blame AT&T for not…

" (Incidentally, a team of four guys with heavy equipment have spent the last three hours trenching fiber 50 feet through my tiny yard. That's the second visit, and there will be one more, and that's not counting running the fiber down the main road which required months of permitting and surveying...) " Do you live northwest of Austin, where 18 inches below the surface there is about two feet of solid limestone?

Rocky outcropping. I thought it was going to be a surgical incision, not a ditch. I think they partly went under my neighbor's yard--but they put all the dirt and dead leaves back over so hopefully he doesn't notice!

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#246

Post by bradstewart » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

adamcharnock wrote: post #36

I wonder, was Google Fibre ever intended to succeed in the traditional sense? Instead, perhaps it was an attempt by Google to change the industry by 1) scaring the incumbents into improving, and 2) expanding consumers' Overton windows[1] regarding what they could/should expect. Google presumably wants to ensure its services can be delivered to consumers, so this would seem towards that end. As another commenter notes…

It certainly had that result for me here in Austin. While they slowed/stopped the Google Fiber rollout, I am now able to get fiber from AT&T. And, extremely surprisingly, the customer service has been great.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#247

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #232

rayiner wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analysis is backwards. There aren't special laws that "make it difficult for new companies to hang wires." The issue was not Google hanging its own wires, but Google contractors moving AT&T's wires in order to make space on the poles. Louisville passed special laws to enable one company to relocate another company's property on utility poles. I think those laws are a good idea, but its hard to blame AT&T for not…

" (Incidentally, a team of four guys with heavy equipment have spent the last three hours trenching fiber 50 feet through my tiny yard. That's the second visit, and there will be one more, and that's not counting running the fiber down the main road which required months of permitting and surveying...) " Do you live northwest of Austin, where 18 inches below the surface there is about two feet of solid limestone?

Sounds like a mission for the Boring Company.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#248

Post by Scooty » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #216

EA wrote: post #152

Our city just built a fiber network and GF was the first to offer service. Since they have come to town, ATT has installed their own fiber network in our neighborhood and Comcast has increased their speeds. I consider our local area disrupted. And I feel no matter what happens with GF, we’ll have faster internet from now on. BTW: cut the cord. GF 1Gb plan with DirecTV Now and YouTube TV.

I'm happy for you, but I think you have to realize that you're in the minority in this country with the levels of choice and competition you have.

I wish I had any choice. I'm stuck using my phone as my primary internet source because my Comcast cable connection drops every fifteen minutes. After several tech support calls and router/modem replacements, I assume they either don't know how to fix the issue or they just don't care.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#249

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

demygale wrote: post #130

endtime wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for Fiber for two years. It was both (wanting to succeed as a business and wanting to shift the industry), with a primary focus on succeeding as a business, or at least that was what the internal messaging was. I won't comment on any possible changes in the last couple years or why they may have happened, except to say that to the best of my knowledge, at no point was the sentiment, "We've shifted the indust…

GF suffers the same fate of every other Google initiative: new exec decides it can't advance his career so it's starved to death in favor of something shinier. Google won't save us any more than Musk will. It's billionaires launching cars into space and fighting for personal wealth at the detriment of the rest of the society.

GF suffers the same fate of every other Google initiative: new exec decides it can't advance his career so it's starved to death in favor of something shinier.

Apparently, "Don't be Evil" doesn't cover internal company politics.

I remember at a previous job, there was this hefty trans-atlantic data link the company was leasing. All the VPs coveted it, so the political machinations basically resulted in no-one using it, ever, all the while we were paying not-insignificant funds for it.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#250

Post by pas » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #244

specialist wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...now wielded by the Far Left..." What is my tribe accused of this time? My peeps are trying to expand broadband, so I guess none of us got the memo.

What is my tribe accused of this time? Kicking out groups that don't hew to the party-line on YouTube. Not only the genuinely far-right, but also moderates, mainstream Republicans, and various sub-cultural enthusiasts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTI4Bm5OxkU My peeps are trying to expand broadband, so I guess none of us got the memo. As I referenced above, old-media interests and local interests oppose the expans…

Could you tl;dr the video please?

> as well as broadly defined Net Neutrality

I don't really see how enforcing the decoupling of ISPs from other sectors hurts competition in the ISP space, but I'm interested in what am I missing, so if you could write out the argument in detail, that'd be great, thanks!

> As it is, the status-quo corporate money is being used as leverage against new media through YouTube.

Could you help with understanding this, maybe by providing some examples?