Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised • Hacker News Board

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#221

Post by apeace » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

mentos wrote: post #213

apeace wrote: post #175

As you can surmise by reading this article, the rise of the wireless ISPs (or WISPs) is not because the wireless technology is better or drastically cheaper. It's because in so many places, the incumbents are able to prevent you from building out fiber. They simply haven't developed the weapons to destroy the WISPs yet, but unless the political climate in states/cities changes, they will. It is tough for WISPs to com…

Any thoughts on Starlink? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink_(satellite_constellat...

I think it's really exciting and a great way to provide internet access to areas of the world that don't have infrastructure for cables.

If they can get the latency they're talking about (that Wikipedia page says 7ms, which I assume is round-trip to the satellite), that would be pretty good. If you're on fiber, you should have sub-millisecond latency to the point of presence. Then the question becomes: which is the shorter path, the satellite-to-satellite path or the transit/dark fiber your fiber ISP is using?

I'm not sure how the math works out, but I'd assume for shorter paths (say, your closest AWS region) fiber is going to come out on top, whereas for trans-continental traffic the satellites could be really competitive.

For example, I am getting 6ms total round-trip-time from NYC to AWS in Virginia.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#222

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

apeace wrote: post #175

As you can surmise by reading this article, the rise of the wireless ISPs (or WISPs) is not because the wireless technology is better or drastically cheaper. It's because in so many places, the incumbents are able to prevent you from building out fiber. They simply haven't developed the weapons to destroy the WISPs yet, but unless the political climate in states/cities changes, they will. It is tough for WISPs to com…

They simply haven't developed the weapons to destroy the WISPs yet, but unless the political climate in states/cities changes, they will.

Basically, authoritarianism rears its ugly head in the US once again, across corporate, national, state, and local levels. The same general kind of gaming of the system which resulted in interstates dividing white from non-white neighborhoods is now maintaining the media status quo. On one side, it's the corporatism and Crony Capitalism the left traditionally complains about, now wielded by the Far Left as a non-governmental form of censorship. On the other side, it's legal and regulatory blocking of progress to maintain the status quo for old media and to use as leverage against the tech giants.

This is potentially deadly for US society. Until we once again have a healthy 5th estate which can reach the whole of society, the Fox-Newsification and the Gawker-ization of our news media is basically destroying what little actual discourse we have left.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#223

Post by Dylan16807 » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

username223 wrote: post #202

conanbatt wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that, but to the detriment of society?

I don't completely agree with this argument, but... All of that money came from somewhere. Do you wonder why most of your local retailers went out of business, and you can't visit a local bookstore or camera shop anymore? It's related to why Jeff Bezos has so much money that he has nothing better to do than shoot stuff into space. Preferably, he will shoot bigger stuff farther than Elon Musk, Richard Branson, or Paul…

"the best use" is a horrible standard that leads to shaming 99.99% of charities for not being literal perfection.

Solving difficult engineering problems is usually good for the world.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#224

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

username223 wrote: post #202

conanbatt wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that, but to the detriment of society?

I don't completely agree with this argument, but... All of that money came from somewhere. Do you wonder why most of your local retailers went out of business, and you can't visit a local bookstore or camera shop anymore? It's related to why Jeff Bezos has so much money that he has nothing better to do than shoot stuff into space. Preferably, he will shoot bigger stuff farther than Elon Musk, Richard Branson, or Paul…

If anything, shooting cars into space makes them spend money they have on people that dont have money and build the car.

Adam Smith directly says vanity is what took down feudalism. We surely dont want our billionaires to not even spend the money they have!

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#225

Post by phyller » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 6:56 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #145

kaennar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how would you carry a model like that over to a place as big as the USA? Montana, Wyoming, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and just about every state that isn't on the East/West coast would have an incredibly difficult time executing this kind of plan because of the distance between communities. I'm not saying that a similar model wouldn't be easy to implement in the boroughs of New York, Boston, SV, Austin, etc., but w…

> But how would you carry a model like that over to a place as big as the USA? Montana, Wyoming, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and just about every state that isn't on the East/West coast would have an incredibly difficult time executing this kind of plan because of the distance between communities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_Electrification_Act > I'm not saying that a similar model wouldn't be easy to implement…

I don't want to pick a side here, but "rural" in the USA and "rural" in Europe are two different things. Once you get away from the coasts, things get very sparse and very big. In many places, if you were 20km from a center of 50,000 people, you would actually be considered to be living in that town of 50,000 people. I personally live about 30km from my city center, I am considered part of that city (including my mailing address), and I don't think anyone around here considers it rural. Rural in America means you might have to drive hours on the weekend just to go shopping. 100s of kms of nothing between you and the next town in some places. And since they are ranching areas on poor soil, there are houses all in between that need to be reached. We are talking about one family on around 400 square kilometers of land. I have family that live in a community like that, and it is not uncommon in many areas.

Consider this, the state of Texas alone is bigger than all of France, and while it has several huge cities in it, it still has less than half the population of France. Montana is more than half the land area of France, and only has 1 million people living in it.

It would be a lot easier to just give up on the 1% that are truly scattered to the winds with little homesteads in the middle of no-where. But hopefully we can get some really good low earth orbit satellite internet and not have to worry about all this.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#226

Post by Dylan16807 » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 6:58 PM UTC

emiliobumachar wrote: post #124

adamcharnock wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have observed a wide range of attitudes towards deception. Both deception of one's self, and of others. For example: For some people being 'a liar' is one of the worst things imaginable, but to others it is perfectly fine. The former judge the latter as being immoral monsters, the latter think the former are rather sweet (and are perhaps also glad the former exist?). Regarding deception of one's self: some people f…

Excuse my pedantry, but you're describing opposite ends of a spectrum.

They described four ends...

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#227

Post by seattleeng » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:00 PM UTC

sireat wrote: post #199

apeace wrote: post #175

As you can surmise by reading this article, the rise of the wireless ISPs (or WISPs) is not because the wireless technology is better or drastically cheaper. It's because in so many places, the incumbents are able to prevent you from building out fiber. They simply haven't developed the weapons to destroy the WISPs yet, but unless the political climate in states/cities changes, they will. It is tough for WISPs to com…

Speaking of latency: a well calibrated point to point wireless connection is less latency than fiber jumping a bunch of switches. Proof: finance industry's wide use of microwave towers. https://meanderful.blogspot.com/2017/05/lines-radios-and-cab... There was another set of articles describing microwave towers in Europe, quite fascinating. Not sure if this was the one: https://sniperinmahwah.wordpress.com/2014/09/22/…

Doesn't weather adversely affect these, though?

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#228

Post by jiveturkey » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:03 PM UTC

kyrra wrote: post #120

endtime wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for Fiber for two years. It was both (wanting to succeed as a business and wanting to shift the industry), with a primary focus on succeeding as a business, or at least that was what the internal messaging was. I won't comment on any possible changes in the last couple years or why they may have happened, except to say that to the best of my knowledge, at no point was the sentiment, "We've shifted the indust…

Google Fiber hit a lot of roadblocks along the way that slowed things down. You have the lawsuit from AT&T against local government in Louisville[0]. There was also a lot of arguments[1][2] around the country for Google trying to access utility poles to hang their wires. Incumbents tried their hardest to prevent Google from hanging new wires. Many of the laws in-place today make it difficult for new companies to hang…

> Google Fiber hit a lot of ^ roadblocks

^ entirely predictable

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#229

Post by anigbrowl » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:04 PM UTC

seattleeng wrote: post #227

sireat wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of latency: a well calibrated point to point wireless connection is less latency than fiber jumping a bunch of switches. Proof: finance industry's wide use of microwave towers. https://meanderful.blogspot.com/2017/05/lines-radios-and-cab... There was another set of articles describing microwave towers in Europe, quite fascinating. Not sure if this was the one: https://sniperinmahwah.wordpress.com/2014/09/22/…

Doesn't weather adversely affect these, though?

What of it? If you have an advantage half the time that's better than not having it, as long as benefits exceed costs.

Re: Eight Years On, Google Fiber Is a Faint Echo of the Disruption Promised

#230

Post by emiliobumachar » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #226

emiliobumachar wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse my pedantry, but you're describing opposite ends of a spectrum.

They described four ends...

True, sorry. I misunderstood it on the first read.

New nit: two spectra.