American companies are suppressing wages for many workers • Hacker News Board

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#61

Post by mrkstu » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #2

All of the major unions have been broken, with the public sector unions coming up next re: the Janus case. Even though there was always a limited number of union workers, their collective bargaining set the standard. That’s not really a factor these days.

The problem with public sector unions are that they are a reverse monopsony. They collude with politicians to elect those who are willing to ignore economic reality and pay unsustainable wages/pensions/benefits[0].

Looking at places like Connecticut/Illinois/New Jersey it is causing starvation of public services to meet pension obligations despite already high taxation.

They are caught in a trap since if they raise taxes further (and/or decrease services) they will lose those most capable of moving- who also happen to pay the most taxes. This is already starting to play out[1].

Private sector unions are tasting the fruits of their corruption via the mafia and general unwillingness to integrate with long term industry needs, ala the German model.

Its incredibly unfortunate, since a modern, ethical and foresightful private union would serve the greater good of the country better than just about anything else I can think of.

0: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adammillsap/2016/06/01/public-p...

1: http://www.courant.com/opinion/editorials/hc-ed-tax-migratio...

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#62

Post by internetman55 » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:50 PM UTC

hiram112 wrote: post #35

Corporate America has trained the plebs well. Every time a discussion on unions or any sort of organization to "push back" against the big companies in just our own industry is met with a good 50% of HN readers dismissing the idea outright. And even talking about cutting off the supply of H1Bs - or at least the body shops that probably aren't as prolific at the top companies which are overrepresented here - is flagge…

I think software developers are dumber than average cause their skills are in such demand that they don't bother learning how to generate/use leverage like professionals in other niches do

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#63

Post by maxxxxx » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

hiram112 wrote: post #46

ThirdFoundation wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the current high wages in Silicon Valley are a function of job competition in other cities (tech jobs in Austin, Denver, NYC, etc) plus a highly mobile workforce. Tech workers tend to skew younger and are also able to work remotely in many cases. I bring all this up, because I'm not sure it will be quite as applicable in other industries. It seems that many workers aren't willing to move for work and don'…

The SV wages I'm seeing seem to be concentrated in a few really wealthy companies who basically enjoy monopoly status in their domains. It doesn't seem like smaller startups pay that well - though maybe that is fair due to the chance to hit it big. What I will tell you is that software engineers in the rest of the country, especially in industries that have been decimated by offshoring and H1Bs (banking, insurance, a…

"I made way better money than most of my peers at 25 - they were still in grad school and paying off loans. By 30, I was still making more, but they were quickly catching up.

I'm imagining by 40, I won't be much ahead of anyone with a professional degree or even those who went into government and now have seniority, pensions, etc"

I have seen that myself. I used to make more than people my age but over the years non tech friends have advanced steadily and have passed me. People in government often make around 150k too but they get a very nice pension in addition.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#64

Post by pjonesdotca » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #56

Like global warming, this may be a problem that we are unable to do anything about except adapt. We need to lean into the gig economy, instead of pulling away. What we need are mechanisms to ensure that there's always a constant and steady stream of gigs available for any person to work. Many of these gigs might not be full-time or part-time jobs but rather micro-jobs or micro-tasks, that some entity needs to have co…

The major problem I see for the "gig economy" is that as a contract worker one is essentially on their own for things like health insurance and unemployment benefits. While neither are things often talked about on the HN boards, here outside the Valley those become real concerns for employees with families.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#65

Post by pjonesdotca » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

kyledrake wrote: post #55

Non-compete clauses are a pretty weird thing and I've seen them in contracts before. Definitely read up on them. I've refused to sign contracts with them before. They're totally unenforceable in California and a few other states. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause

Mostly unenforceable in Canada as well.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#66

Post by somethrowaway12 » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:53 PM UTC

One thing I rarely see discussed but am curious about is the impact of women entering the workforce over the period we have observed wage stagnation. If you "doubled" the supply of labour, would that suppress wage growth?

Have relatively high-paying professions managed to replicate the effects suppressing wage-growth of the lower-paying jobs by accepting more women into their workforce over the past 20-30 years?

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#67

Post by ManlyBread » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:54 PM UTC

hiram112 wrote: post #35

Corporate America has trained the plebs well. Every time a discussion on unions or any sort of organization to "push back" against the big companies in just our own industry is met with a good 50% of HN readers dismissing the idea outright. And even talking about cutting off the supply of H1Bs - or at least the body shops that probably aren't as prolific at the top companies which are overrepresented here - is flagge…

I am always amazed how many excuses and how many arguments are there when big businesses profit at the cost of the average Joe, but God forbid when a mere employee tries to do the same.

I see no reason to be "ethical" anymore when it comes to employment because I know that it will be one sided - in this case I will act purely in my own interest, just like the businesses do. There's zero reason to play the game where the other side gets to change rules at will and forces you to get along with it.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#68

Post by Cthulhu_ » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:54 PM UTC

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #18

The linked article mentions outsourcing, but it was this other _fantastic_ article [1] on the structural issues of the current wage economy that really helped me understand just how different things are: "Thirty years ago, she says, you could walk into any hotel in America and everyone in the building, from the cleaners to the security guards to the bartenders, was a direct hire, each worker on the same pay scale and…

The other crooked part about temps / contractors is that they're more expensive for the party hiring their services, but the employees earn less and have worse secondary terms; that extra money? Goes to the higher-ups.

Companies need to be incentivised to hire their own people again.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#69

Post by matte_black » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:55 PM UTC

pjonesdotca wrote: post #64

matte_black wrote: post #56

Like global warming, this may be a problem that we are unable to do anything about except adapt. We need to lean into the gig economy, instead of pulling away. What we need are mechanisms to ensure that there's always a constant and steady stream of gigs available for any person to work. Many of these gigs might not be full-time or part-time jobs but rather micro-jobs or micro-tasks, that some entity needs to have co…

The major problem I see for the "gig economy" is that as a contract worker one is essentially on their own for things like health insurance and unemployment benefits. While neither are things often talked about on the HN boards, here outside the Valley those become real concerns for employees with families.

Health insurance I agree is a problem that needs to be solved independently from employers. In fact, if we actually manage to solve healthcare at some point in the future the gig economy will only grow more as it will become more feasible to move from employer to employer.

Unemployment is best handled by keeping your own savings I'd say, though that's tough for some to grasp in a nation with little financial education.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#70

Post by kakarot » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

charmander_IRL wrote: post #47

Why are low skill non-competes bad? You can just lateral into another low skill job in an unrelated industry. It’s not as if you have a huge amount of human capital sunk into sandwich prep.

It's often not that easy, and what if people don't want to change industries every time they lose their job?

If something like that became standard, it would be used as a tool to further divide our socioeconomic classes. Social pressures from friends, family, children, as well as economic pressures will force people into signing these non-compete contracts.

The issue is that, as a member of a overpopulated labor pool, a low-skilled worker has no bargaining power and so without bans on things like non-competes, corporations could walk all over their labor force. That is a social regression.