American companies are suppressing wages for many workers • Hacker News Board

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#21

Post by jdavis703 » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

justaman wrote: post #11

jacknews wrote: post #8

In addition it seems to me that labor is not a free market, simply because there is no choice to not offer your labor, since you'd starve. In large parts of the world anyway, and globalization has brought them into the 'free' market.

I think the labor market is free. If you choose not to offer your labor then you're not actually in the labor market are you? Perhaps rather the market has become overly populated with workers and there isn't much choice in which opportunities you pursue.

In some US states you have to pay child support, even if you're unemployed. If you don't pay you go to jail. And while you're in jail the costs keep coming. If that's a free market, then I'm not sure what freedom is.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#22

Post by nine_k » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #16

tdb7893 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food always seemed a pretty free market to me, even though it's necessary. I was taught that free market is more about competition and access to information while necessity of the product mainly affected price inelasticity but that was econ 101 so idk if it's entirely accurate.

Shopping for groceries might be close to a free market, but the production of food certainly isn't. Also, a big problem with the "free market" is inability and/or disincentive to price externalities, such as environmental damage. Although, it still seems to be a better system than others, we need to work on that front.

Do you mean large subsidies to US farmers? Wholesale food markets dominated by few huge buyers, Walmart-style?

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#23

Post by wfo » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:23 PM UTC

Interesting the authors cite unionization as an effective protection against this in the past but do not recommend it as a remedy for the future. The problem with simply passing laws as they suggest is that those laws once in place will be opposed by everyone with power simultaneously and forever, with no powerful organized collective force to defend them it is just a matter of time until corporate power grinds them into dust.

Unions give actual power to workers (and are great at motivating them to vote according to their interests!) instead of just passing laws out of the goodness of our heart to protect them and hoping they last through billions of dollars in corporate bribes.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#24

Post by baq » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:23 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #3

And why wouldn't they? It's time to bring back mechanisms, legal or otherwise, to prevent this from happening again. Usually the collective workforce of a company has significant leverage over a company, but with the advent of globalization, the "gig economy", and technological unemployment in some ways this leverage is harder to capitalize on, or even worse, nonexistent. I don't know if there's any empirical proof f…

yeah that's what unions are really about - to think about the employees for the employees good, where HR thinks about them for the good of the company. implementations of that idea are of varying quality which unfortunately gives them a bad rep.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#25

Post by OscarCunningham » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #18

The linked article mentions outsourcing, but it was this other _fantastic_ article [1] on the structural issues of the current wage economy that really helped me understand just how different things are: "Thirty years ago, she says, you could walk into any hotel in America and everyone in the building, from the cleaners to the security guards to the bartenders, was a direct hire, each worker on the same pay scale and…

What is it, in particular, about contracting that allows businesses to pay the same people less? What can they do with the contracting that they couldn't do without it?

I think this:

>“By shifting tasks to contractors, companies pay a price for a service rather than wages for work. That means they don’t have to think about training, career advancement or benefit provision.”

was an attempt at explanation. But I don't see how it leads to lower wages.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#26

Post by randomdata » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:25 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #2

All of the major unions have been broken, with the public sector unions coming up next re: the Janus case. Even though there was always a limited number of union workers, their collective bargaining set the standard. That’s not really a factor these days.

Interestingly, unionization in Canada is still as strong as the strongest years in the US. Despite that, wages are every bit as stagnant as the US and, looking at income data, there is a lot of mirroring between the two countries. The substantial decline of unionization in the US is one thing, but what is Canada doing wrong?

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#27

Post by athenot » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:25 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #17

mindvirus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non competes, I wish the law was that companies could bench you, but they'd have to pay you 200% of your best comp of the past 5 years. I think it'd solve a ton of problems.

> I wish the law was that companies could bench you, but they'd have to pay you 200% of your best comp of the past 5 years Legally-mandated golden parachutes?

More like you are doing a favor to them, and that should be compensated accordingly. The actual amount should reflect how much the company values this. But the ban shouldn't be anything less than what you could earn elsewhere. So there should be an obligation to match the payout to the highest job offer you are able to get.

Also, companies are still free to strive to keep their knowledgeable workers happy, with an attractive total comp and good work environment.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#28

Post by swiley » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:26 PM UTC

CompelTechnic wrote: post #7

One thing I wonder- to what extent has the digitization of the job search process contributed to reduced wages? I can imagine several mechanisms that would cause this to reduce wage growth: 1. Widely available data on wages tends to introduce a lagging effect on wage inflation, because workers tend to look at data that is a least a couple of years old (imagine what pool of data is currently being used on glassdoor.co…

More like "widely available outdated data." Better (real time) access to data would help the situation, but the wording there makes it sound like you mean to say the opposite.

The affect of bad data on the labor market almost looks like the affect of fake news in politics doesn't it?

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#29

Post by baq » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

expertentipp wrote: post #5

Post-contractual non-compete without any compensation. It’s starting to be a thing even in EU. 5-10 years ago I could sign an employment contract blindfolded, now it’s a freaking minefield where in couple of years I can end up without a job, unemployable, and owning multiple monthly salaries to the employer. We have too many bored lawyers.

amazingly california bans non-competes. another reason for silicon valley irreplicability.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#30

Post by greedo » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

OscarCunningham wrote: post #25

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #18

The linked article mentions outsourcing, but it was this other _fantastic_ article [1] on the structural issues of the current wage economy that really helped me understand just how different things are: "Thirty years ago, she says, you could walk into any hotel in America and everyone in the building, from the cleaners to the security guards to the bartenders, was a direct hire, each worker on the same pay scale and…

What is it, in particular, about contracting that allows businesses to pay the same people less? What can they do with the contracting that they couldn't do without it? I think this: >“By shifting tasks to contractors, companies pay a price for a service rather than wages for work. That means they don’t have to think about training, career advancement or benefit provision.” was an attempt at explanation. But I don't…

There's also a psychological factor at work too. Contractors aren't part of the business "family" but a cost center. So the dynamic changes; instead of a longterm commitment to a person, it's more of a direct business relationship with the outsourcing company.