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The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

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Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#101

Post by mechagodzilla »

qubex wrote: post #71
ansible wrote: post #42

I used to be sort of obsessed with some kind of handheld Linux machine. Devices I've had included: HP 200 LX with 40MB PCMCIA storage. Tried to run a cut-down 16-bit version of Linux on it, but I don't think I ever got that running properly. Original Sharp Zaurus, the first Linux PDA. Tried to run Linux on a Compaq iPaq at some point too. Asus EEE PC 401 with the 7in screen and 4GB of storage. The first of the netboo…

Like you, I have an almost obsession-level fascination with Linux on palmtops. I think I can trace it all the way back to seeing a young John Connor ‘hack’ an ATM or something in the watershed Terminator 2 movie when I was a kid. Like you I've had an HP 200LX (the closest I've come to Connor's pocket Atari-or-whatever), a Compaq iPaq, a PSION Series 7 ‘netbook’, and (most recently, not Linux-related) an Apple eMate 3…

I had an eMate 300 for taking notes in college (2006-2007)! I replaced the batteries and put in a wifi pcmcia card - it got like 24 hours of battery life and was super rugged. It was really great as a distraction-free school machine.

Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#102

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

qengho wrote: post #47
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s the world’s smallest and lightest handheld computer. Only for very specific definitions. Some phones are smaller than that, and there are GNU+Linux wrist watches.

Phones aren't PCs. They are crippled and locked-down devices. Of the ones that are capable of running a full Linux distro, I don't believe any are even close to the size of Noodle Pi. I'm not aware of any Linux wristwatch or any other computer that's in production and available to buy that is smaller than Noodle Pi. If you know of a Linux wristwatch that's for sale commercially I'd love to know about it. The only Lin…

> Phones aren't PCs. They are crippled and locked-down devices.

We have differing definitions. I might concede phones as separate from "PCs", but the original phrase was "handheld computer", which most phones are. Yes, many are locked down at the bootloader level, but they're still general-purpose computing devices. With Termux or a chroot, you can even get GNU goodness on them. Even without that, Android/iOS are as much computers as Windows S devices; they can run programs compiled for that OS, and have normal full-function CPUs, GPUs, and network stacks. The default use-cases are restricted, but worst case you can flip on the switch for sideloading APKs and run any code you want.

> Linux wristwatch

Prepare to be amazed(1) :) https://asteroidos.org/ is a proper GNU/Linux system for hardware that shipped with Android Wear. It's running a tiny QT GUI on the touchscreen, but you can SSH in (https://asteroidos.org/wiki/ssh/) and get a normal system, systemd and all.

(1) I mean this sincerely; it still amazes me every time I look at what they've built.

Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#103

Post by saagarjha »

tjoff wrote: post #100
saagarjha wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a good target group when determining defaults. I’m not saying that we should remove all customizability; rather, I feel that out of the box a device should serve the majority of people.

I agree not nearly enough thought is being put into the defaults. But the majority of Linux users are "techies", thus the defaults should cater to them.

The benefit of Linux is that you can customize it for deferent groups of people: that’s what distros are. You can have one where the defaults cater to technical users and one where it’s focused on the needs of the general population.

Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#104

Post by qengho »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #102
qengho wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phones aren't PCs. They are crippled and locked-down devices. Of the ones that are capable of running a full Linux distro, I don't believe any are even close to the size of Noodle Pi. I'm not aware of any Linux wristwatch or any other computer that's in production and available to buy that is smaller than Noodle Pi. If you know of a Linux wristwatch that's for sale commercially I'd love to know about it. The only Lin…

> Phones aren't PCs. They are crippled and locked-down devices. We have differing definitions. I might concede phones as separate from "PCs", but the original phrase was "handheld computer", which most phones are. Yes, many are locked down at the bootloader level, but they're still general-purpose computing devices. With Termux or a chroot, you can even get GNU goodness on them. Even without that, Android/iOS are as…

Yes, for the sake of precision I should probably have used the term “PC” rather than “computer”. I thought the meaning was pretty clear from the phrase “handheld computer”.

AsteroidOS looks very cool, thanks for the link. But a watch "running a tiny QT GUI on the touchscreen”, and which you can only really use as a computer by SSHing in via another computer, is not a PC, by any reasonable definition.

I'm aware of many little devices that can run Linux, but they're not full-fledged PCs unless they have reasonably sized screens and enough processing power to run regular PC apps in a usable manner.

Neither is a phone, which is neither marketed as a PC (or a “computer”), nor able to run any apps that aren't written specifically for Android / iOS, without all sorts of complicated shenanigans to jailbreak its lock-down, which is designed precisely to prevent it from being used as a general purpose computer.

Some people can “skate” on a bicycle while standing up on the seat and handlebar. That doesn’t mean a bicycle is a skateboard. Especially if they had to first break built-in protections in the bicycle specifically designed to prevent them from doing that.

Also sideloading APKs is a far cry from “run any code you want”. Can I run a GTK app written in Perl on an Android phone by sideloading an APK?

Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#105

Post by bigger_cheese »

fyfy18 wrote: post #6
saagarjha wrote: post #4

My personal take on Linux handhelds is that they're held back by their user interfaces. None of the options I've seen have the polish of iOS and Android; they just look ugly and painful to use. On desktop this is 1. improving and 2. partially masked by the paradigm that you're supposed to "get work done", but mobile is in a large part still a platform for consumption and issues such as these make it difficult to seri…

I use Linux on the desktop and this is my biggest gripe their too (well it’s the same on BSD too, nothing Linux specific). Sometimes I wish the desktop environments were a bit more opinionated like MacOS (but without all the restrictions). I’m keeping a close eye on elementary OS to see where that ends up.

I've found nowadays I want a desktop that stays out of my way as much as possible. Preferably it should be lightweight and responsive.

I can still remember when I first started using Linux how excited I was that you could customize everything. I spent hours tweaking KDE to look just how I wanted it. Right down to the appearance of the clock on the system tray. Then AIGLX came out - I spent even more time compiling kernel modules running custom compositors etc so I could have wobbly windows and a spinning cube to switch virtual desktops. You know what for all the time it took me to get everything working it solved precisely none of the issues I had.

Nowadays (10+ years later has it really been that long) I don't care about any of that I've come to the realization the desktop just doesn't matter it's the applications.

I use the computer to run applications (be it firefox, emacs, terminal emulator, whatever else I need to get work done) make it easy for me to launch applications and make it easy for me to toggle between applications. Other than that stay out of my way.

I think a lot of long time users end up feeling the same way which leads to conclusion a lot of techies don't care about the desktop. Which I think is true but not for the reason you think.

Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#106

Post by kec »

saagarjha wrote: post #96
kec wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In complicated systems this just leads to literally everyone being unhappy: You get vocal users who's weird combination of settings lead to edge case bugs, leading to devs getting stretched thin playing whack-a-mole and neglecting the needs of base case users.

Yes, but this is a practical rather than an inherent issue. You’ll see these crop up anytime you have a lot of people using something.

Honestly not really. Complexity breeds bugs simply due to surface area, and complexity grows exponentially with features (as in, each boolean option you add doubles the number of states your system can be in).

Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#107

Post by walterbell »

fractallyte wrote: post #73

I'm keeping it modular and simple: Jolla's Sailfish X on a Sony Xperia, and a Jorno bluetooth keyboard. All my development tools run on a native terminal (Emacs, SBCL, Erlang). SSH 'just works'. Android apps too, if I really need any of them. Basically, for my needs, it's an ultra-portable computer with the benefits of telephony. (And protected - on trips - in an absurdly over-the-top armored case by Love Mei.)

Is it difficult to install Sailfish on the Sony Xperia?

Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#108

Post by chunsj »

What I hope to see (and would like to buy) is the one with form factor of VAIO UX or OQO. I think current technology of ARM can make this happen again with longer battery time.

I've used VAIO UX with arch linux and the keyboard is sufficiently comfortable enough to run emacs for "mobile coding" :)

Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#109

Post by xeeeeeeeeeeenu »

walterbell wrote: post #107
fractallyte wrote: post #73

I'm keeping it modular and simple: Jolla's Sailfish X on a Sony Xperia, and a Jorno bluetooth keyboard. All my development tools run on a native terminal (Emacs, SBCL, Erlang). SSH 'just works'. Android apps too, if I really need any of them. Basically, for my needs, it's an ultra-portable computer with the benefits of telephony. (And protected - on trips - in an absurdly over-the-top armored case by Love Mei.)

Is it difficult to install Sailfish on the Sony Xperia?

No, it's not hard and it's officially supported by Jolla. Note that Sailfish X is a commercial product, it costs 50 EUR:

https://jolla.com/sailfishx/

Re: The world of Linux Handhelds in 2018

#110

Post by walterbell »

xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote: post #109
walterbell wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it difficult to install Sailfish on the Sony Xperia?

No, it's not hard and it's officially supported by Jolla. Note that Sailfish X is a commercial product, it costs 50 EUR: https://jolla.com/sailfishx/

Thanks, it looks like a VPN is needed to purchase from the US.
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