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Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

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Re: Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

#41
I've been a PM for 3+ years, I switched after being a full-stack developer for 4 years. When I made the move the company had about 150 employees.

My experience so far: the role is very broad, and the responsibilities are -very- different across companies and products. The specifics depend on many things, like maturity/size/culture of your company, pricing of your product, whether or not it is open source, etc.

On one side of the spectrum you have PMs who are very close to the development teams, and you might still be contributing code regularly. You might be a sort of architect who also makes sure documentation is in order and who handles user feedback/discussions. These PMs are typically "user-focused", in that they try to improve the product for the end user.

On the other side you have a much more market-focused role (MBA type) where you'll do market analysis, pricing, marketing, sales materials, etc. You might see the dev team once a week, or maybe only the engineering managers. These PMs are typically "customer-focused", so targeting the buyers of the product (who might not be the actual end-user, but for example a CIO, depending on your market).

In any case: age/wisdom/maturity matters, it is not a junior role. You will also be in a lot of meetings. You will be the face of the product and you need to enjoy interacting with people.

edit: added the sentences about "user-focused" vs "customer-focused".

Re: Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

#42
In my experience, associate PM positions require applicants to be undergrad CS students and un-modified & senior PM title positions require recognizable PM experience.

The roles are very competitive, and unless you’ve worked with someone at the company before as a PM, I would say you’d have to be pretty special to be considered. I think a successful PM’s strongest asset is the trust of their team and company, so outsiders aren’t the safest choice for a new hire, unlike roles with more demonstrable skills like engineering.

Edit: I also went to Product School and think it’s a great way to show current employers your dedication to making a transition. For joining a new company though, it doesn’t come close to comparing to what HackReactor does for a developer applicant. As far as educational content, I think the only value I got was talking to current PMs about how the realities of their jobs differ from what you read in books like cracking the pm interview.

Re: Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

#43
I feel many comments here are confusing "Product" Management with "Project" Management. Many describing being a "people person" which isn't (in my eyes) a needed trait for a product manager, but is for a project manager. There are obviously social aspects of being a product manager, but much of it has to do with relaying what's in your head moreso than trying to manage people day-to-day.

To me, what matters for the OP, is that you are actually a product person? In my experience too many people are just terrible at understanding their field, products, how to actually break down product problems to their basic pieces and build solutions up from there. Being able to trust their designers, ui/ux, engineers to take their vision and execute (or simply just being good at transferring the vision in their head to being executable by others.

If you're not great at the above, please don't try and shoehorn yourself into product management. I've had too many terrible product managers that should have been something entirely different in my day that just literally ruins years of people's lives.

If you are not interested / good at the above, I'd consider a more Project Management role, which is about figuring out how to take a team and turn them into a well-oiled machine that loves working together towards common goals.

In many places (like startups) the line between the two above obviously blurs, my only concern is moving into Product Management role that you're not fit for. I say this more in general for people thinking about this themselves - mostly because of all the Product / Project Managers I've seen, I'd say 2/10 of them I'd actually want to work with again (though they both had engineering backgrounds which works in your favor).

Re: Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty obvious. After you've been coding for almost 2 decades across multiple industries, coding becomes predictable and tedious. By that point, you've become an expert in many sub-fields within computer science; you probably even started to forget some of the old technologies/methodologies that you used to be an expert at. You come to understand that software development methodologies are just fleeting…

>>After you've been coding for almost 2 decades across multiple industries, coding becomes predictable and tedious. Well yeah, if you are still “coding” after two decades you will probably find it tedious. You can move into “engineering” and “architecting” however, which involve entirely different challenges, both in type and scale.

I used to work with a guy who was really proud of that...

Re: Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

#46

My $0.02, having been a PM for many years: Read Cracking the PM Interview [1] (for an overview of the job, not the actual interview tips) and The Lean Startup [2] (for general philosophy). 35 is a great age for a PM, especially since PM's often start elsewhere -- maturity is a plus here. I'd say there are 3 main ways into it -- as an engineer, who starts to do PM-type stuff on a team where there's no PM. As a designe…

Thank you for this. I appreciate it. I like collaboration and working with people to drive projects and get things done. As an IC who has been a tech lead (without direct reports), I haven't had a chance to demonstrate or learn a lot of leadership nuances, but I've recently moved to a scrum master role, and am learning a lot there. I'll definitely read up on the books you suggested. Thank you so much.

Re: Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

#47
post #40
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, if you want to be a PM then you'd better enjoy meetings, slides, people, and communicating & convincing all day long, day-in day-out. Leave me in my room with my beloved keyboard! I can sense other likely-minded beings over the wire. No slides, no meetings, no politics. Only the austerity of code, measurements, technical merit.

It depends on what you want. If you want some sort of "purity of code", that's great. If you want more (especially control), you'll never have it. Except for your side projects.

Technical co-founder with controlling equity is the role you meant, not side projects. Like most co-founders of big tech companies nowadays.

Re: Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

#48

Thank you for asking this. I’m 38 and trying to make a move to product management. I’ve been a front-end developer for years but I’m just not good enough at what’s become front-end to keep up and maintain any kind of work-life balance. It’s not fun anymore.

Why do you think being a PM will be any easier?

I have no trouble keeping up with design and technical trends and understanding deep technical details. I'm just not enough of a programmer to keep up with the pace of being hands-on with the code. I've actually been moving in this direction for a few years.

About three years ago, I got lucky enough to be put into a management position. In order to do the job, I had to put hands-on development aside more and more in order to make room for the job of actually running a small team. We were sorely lacking product management—doing pretty much everything at the whims of stakeholders—so I started bringing it into what I do. I definitely enjoy it more than today's front-end development, although I still love being involved in the process.

My dilemma is how I switch to it full time. Even though I'm trying to do a fair amount of it, it seems like it'll be hard to get my foot in the door anywhere without that title on my resume. We've got a whole department full of people at my company with "product" in their titles, yet they don't do any actual product management, making it hard to make the switch internally.

Re: Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

#49
post #17

My $0.02, having been a PM for many years: Read Cracking the PM Interview [1] (for an overview of the job, not the actual interview tips) and The Lean Startup [2] (for general philosophy). 35 is a great age for a PM, especially since PM's often start elsewhere -- maturity is a plus here. I'd say there are 3 main ways into it -- as an engineer, who starts to do PM-type stuff on a team where there's no PM. As a designe…

> Also, if you want to be a PM then you'd better enjoy meetings, slides, people, and communicating & convincing all day long, day-in day-out. Leave me in my room with my beloved keyboard! I can sense other likely-minded beings over the wire. No slides, no meetings, no politics. Only the austerity of code, measurements, technical merit.

Such a vision is a fallacy.

Re: Ask HN: Move to product management at 35?

#50
post #7

I have a random related question-- will product management pay as well as engineering? Or is the OP implicitly asking for a loss in pay?

Engineering is in higher aggregate demand (there are more open eng roles as the ratio of Engineers:PMs is high, and the minimum qualification bar to be an engineer is higher ie you need to know how to code at a bare minimum. You also generally speaking can always add more engineers to a mature tech product as they can fix bugs, tech debt, etc and help the business overall). As a result, my personal anecdotal observation is that Engineering pays the same or somewhat higher at the more junior / midlevel range where the base of the org chart pyramid is "wider."

However, Product Management is a straighter shot to general management, and becoming a GM/CEO is a path towards some of the highest total comp.

Mileage will vary by company (and probably region).

In terms of compensation, both are excellent.

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