Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

cand.pglaf.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

451–460 of 529 posts

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#451

Post by AnthonyMouse »

icebraining wrote: post #362
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those points can't be picked apart like you did. They add up Others are doing a fine job of taking apart the specifics, but it's important to understand why this form of argument is itself a fallacy. Inference works by taking into account new evidence and using it to adjust the probability with which you believe something to be true. So if you see Bob wearing a red shirt, you are more likely to believe that Bob own…

The US does have .us - it was actually the first ccTLD - and a complex hierarchy under it, it's just not commonly used for historical reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.us

It's not commonly used because the hierarchy is weird. Originally the names had to be four deep, containing both the state and the locality, which is silly since all but the smallest operations span localities and even small companies often change locality. So they eventually allowed registrations directly at .us but there is still no .us equivalent to .org.uk.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#452

Post by briandear »

Findus23 wrote: post #97

I’m really for open access to old books, but for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws. After all those are the only ones I can directly influence (by voting, etc.) If we’d start to ignore this (even if it is in my advantage in this case), this means I have no influence any more on how companies are allowed to interact with me (which shouldn’t be the cas…

> International websites have to respect local laws

No. A website doesn’t really exist unless a person visits it. It’s up to the user to respect local laws. If certain content is illegal somewhere, that’s not the fault of the website. The website isn’t in the country of concern. Why is it there problem? It’s up to the user to choose if they want to break local laws by consuming “illegal” content.

If I start a phone sex number in the Cayman Islands and such phone systems are illegal to use in Germany, then why is it my problem? I am not forcing people to call, nor why should I care where a call comes from. The end user is the one violating the law by calling my service. It isn’t like I am broadcasting.

Same concept. A website is no different than a phone number.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#453

Post by kidsil »

expertentipp wrote: post #417
netsharc wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on how media companies sue German torrent sharers (it's a cash cow for the law firms, like the one that is involved here, Waldorf Frommer), they sue individuals for making copyrighted content available on the internet -- because when you're torrenting something other people can get the completed parts from your computer, so if you run a mirror which is accessible from Germany, you will probably get a letter fro…

> Waldorf Frommer Oh they are still around?! Someone should shut them down and jail for the mere reason of the enourmous amount of paper they waste on trolling letters.

I've seen them squeeze 1000 Euro out of so many people (usually the sum they go for, making it a tad more expensive than a defence lawyer would cost you). It's a sad state of affairs.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#455

Post by icebraining »

briandear wrote: post #450
icebraining wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems to follow lockstep with the US on completely irrational copyright policy like "75 years after the author dies, only then can anyone else reproduce this work". No, the US followed the EU on that one. The Berne Convention first set that policy¹ in 1886, and amongst the original signatories were multiple European countries: Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom. Others followe…

But those facts don’t fit with the anti-American trope commonly repeated on Hacker News. Why do many Europeans on here seem to resent or blame the US for everything? There doesn’t seem to be nearly the same animosity from Asians or Australians. I am genuinely curious because clearly you stated the facts around the origins of copyright law but clearly others wanted to claim that this whole system was caused by America…

Well, while I'm European, I can't say I speak for Europeans; I have no special knowledge. Take this with a big grain of salt.

You know the Elder Race trope in sci-fi? I think we Europeans think of ourselves a bit like that. Having suffered so much in both world wars, and having since mostly stopped fighting, we see ourselves as mature. Between the 50s-80s, we also mostly embraced a style of social-democracy with strong safety nets, which made us think of ourselves as compassionate. And our ancient heritage - cities, traditions, etc - make us feel wise.

Americans are seen a bit like the ancient Greeks and Romans saw the Barbarians. We might like some of you (hell, some barbarians were made into Roman emperors!), but you are still seen as violent and dangerous; be that due to your foreign policy (Vietnam, the Balkans, Iraq) or your way of life (love of guns, poor social safety net, anti-science beliefs, etc).

But the real problem is that you are powerful, and you use that power. The previous poster might be incorrect regarding that particular policy, but their misconception comes from the fact that the US has been forcing IP treaties (e.g. ACTA) on other countries. And it's not just those treaties, it's your products and even your culture. You mentioned Coca-Cola. You know how that used to be called in my country, especially during the more left-wing days of the late 70s? The "dirty water of imperialism". The fear of being Americanized exists - and it's not unreasonable.

But you should also know that the US is not seen as the source of all evils, that's probably just what reaches you. There's plenty of internal strife. In my country, during the crisis, the enemies were Merkel and Schaeuble, for example.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#456

Post by d0100 »

redmorphium wrote: post #343
gsich wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simplest solution would have been to do nothing.

They still have to comply with the court ruling, i.e. at least block those 18 books in Germany, as they aren't The Pirate Bay. The website's move is smart because it avoids future complications coming from the Urheberrechtsgesetz, the German copyright law, and draws much-needed public attention to how easy it is for bully firms to abuse it.

How come they have to obey the court in Germany?

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#457

Post by _nalply »

briandear wrote: post #444
wolco wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't buy but pirate and share. Let's not block information only payment.

So the authors should work for free? That’s theft.

It's not theft. If you took away the bike of the author, that's theft.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#458

Post by sparkie »

johnmax wrote: post #226
robjwells wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws I think this is an untenable position as it would mean that any website, published from any country, hosted on servers in any country, would have to abide by the laws of the world’s 193 countries. Project Gutenberg’s argument is that they are only a US concern — everyone involved officially is in the US, and th…

if we followed your reasoning, you are able to provide anything illegal at a website, simply by hosting it in a country which you dont really target (eg isle of man). thus, courts must be able to ask for what they did in the case of gutenberg. by the way i dont see the big problem, except if the fines were big (maybe they were like only 200 usd)

A German court has no authority to compel a US company to block a subset of IP addresses though. If they want to enforce domestic policy they only have the right to force domestic companies to perform the block (i.e, by requiring that all German ISPs block access to the site).

A website would need to comply with German laws iff they have operations in Germany.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#459

Post by tom_mellior »

mcguire wrote: post #309
Findus23 wrote: post #97

I’m really for open access to old books, but for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws. After all those are the only ones I can directly influence (by voting, etc.) If we’d start to ignore this (even if it is in my advantage in this case), this means I have no influence any more on how companies are allowed to interact with me (which shouldn’t be the cas…

There is an established treaty for handling this particular issue. The court in question has decided not to follow that treaty.

Could you be more specific?

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#460

Post by wolco »

briandear wrote: post #444
wolco wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't buy but pirate and share. Let's not block information only payment.

So the authors should work for free? That’s theft.

The author will work for free if the boycott proceeds. This way his work can at least be seen.
Post reply on HN