Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#421

Post by Faark » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 12:58 PM UTC

number6 wrote: post #342

foepys wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also German and strongly disagree with your opinion. Privacy is a very delicate topic in Germany since the Nazis and the Stasi used to arrest people for even talking bad about them.

While this is true for the people, the officials seem to have other goals and opinions about privacy. E.g. using video surveillance at the Südkreuz in Berlin. Also from Germany ;)

There are advocacy groups fighting privacy everywhere, including germany. And yes, they make progress, even here. But we still have stronger privacy culture and laws (that local companies follow, regardless what the guy a few posts above says) , giving such groups a much harder time here (and some degree the EU) to push their agenda. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case regarding IP laws/interest.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#422

Post by jhasse » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 1:04 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #379

jhasse wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everyone to live by any law anywhere The site is obly blocked in Germany.

Sure, but Germans having an issue with an American site just cost that American company €50,000 for no reason at all. I agree with the poster saying that if Germany had an issue with content they could have just blocked the website themselves.

The books being available for download for free might have cost a German company even more. So I wouldn't say "no reason at all".

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#423

Post by jhasse » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #271

jhasse wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the internet I still don't understand what that means exactly. > whereas Project Gutenberg has zero connection to Germany. I disagree. > what does the nationality of Gutenberg the historical person have to do with anything? Is shakespeare.com subject to uk laws? There's a lot inbetween of zero connection with country X and subject to it's law. So regarding shakesbear.com: No, not necessarily.

Are you really asserting that a) anything in the German language falls under the jurisdiction of the German government, and that b) a relationship bearing on legal jurisdiction between two otherwise completely unrelated entities can be created by otherwise unrelated third parties?

a) No

b) What do you mean exactly?

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#424

Post by jhasse » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 1:15 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #269

jhasse wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those points can't be picked apart like you did. They add up and make it reasonable to argue that gutenberg.org is very well known in Germany and that lots of Germans have downloaded the books in question. The copyright owners are still selling those here and have probably already lost sales due to this. They tried to contact gutenberg.org, but where ignored. This isn't about free speech amd censorship. > If you thin…

Ignored? Where are you seeing that?

In the court order.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#425

Post by jhasse » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 1:18 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #293

jhasse wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those points can't be picked apart like you did. They add up and make it reasonable to argue that gutenberg.org is very well known in Germany and that lots of Germans have downloaded the books in question. The copyright owners are still selling those here and have probably already lost sales due to this. They tried to contact gutenberg.org, but where ignored. This isn't about free speech amd censorship. > If you thin…

> Those points can't be picked apart like you did. They add up Others are doing a fine job of taking apart the specifics, but it's important to understand why this form of argument is itself a fallacy. Inference works by taking into account new evidence and using it to adjust the probability with which you believe something to be true. So if you see Bob wearing a red shirt, you are more likely to believe that Bob own…

> The problem with allowing plaintiffs or prosecutors to play this game is that they can take the list of everything you've ever done, ignore everything that makes what they're trying to prove less likely and present only the list of things that make it more likely. If you look only at that evidence then each piece of it increases the probability that you believe what they want you to believe, regardless of whether it's actually true.

Isn't there a defence? I also don't believe the court would like to find out that the prosecutor lied.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#426

Post by znpy » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 1:18 PM UTC

I wonder if it works the other way around, in general:

- country A has different copyright laws than country B.

- A copyright holder from country A asks an organization in country B to take off some content based on country A's copyright laws.

- The organization in country B decides not to take off the content, as it is perfectly fine under country B copyright laws, and block whole country A access.

So here are some questions:

- Might this case set a precedent?

- Some of those weird, small and autonomous one-island countries can come up with some very relaxed copyright laws and start distribute content "legally" ?

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#427

Post by jhasse » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

Bizarro wrote: post #290

jhasse wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this is an untenable position as it would mean that any website, published from any country, hosted on servers in any country, would have to abide by the laws of the world’s 193 countries. No. If you read the court order, they are arguing, that gutenberg.org is targeted at Germans. There are a few reason: 1. there's a link on the front page to view the site in German 2. there's a similar German project: htt…

So yeah: If you do a website and target a different country, ignore emails about legal issues from citizens of that country for months, you should start to think about respecting the laws of that country. And once again we get this lie being said around here. You should really just be honest with your political comments and come out with what you really want to say.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you want to imply that the prosecutor lied about this?

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#428

Post by gambiting » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

jhasse wrote: post #422

gambiting wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but Germans having an issue with an American site just cost that American company €50,000 for no reason at all. I agree with the poster saying that if Germany had an issue with content they could have just blocked the website themselves.

The books being available for download for free might have cost a German company even more. So I wouldn't say "no reason at all".

Like I said before - there is a legal path for foreign companies to sue American companies under the American legal system. If the plaintiff could demonstrate loses due to actions by project Gutenberg, I'm 100% certain that an American court would have ruled in favour of the plaintiff. But this €50k isn't even going to the publisher - it's in fees to the German court system, which - in my opinion - could have been completely and totally ignored. So when I said "no reason at all" I meant that PG will now be paying €50k for something that they shouldn't be a part of.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#429

Post by stestagg » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

znpy wrote: post #426

I wonder if it works the other way around, in general: - country A has different copyright laws than country B. - A copyright holder from country A asks an organization in country B to take off some content based on country A's copyright laws. - The organization in country B decides not to take off the content, as it is perfectly fine under country B copyright laws, and block whole country A access. So here are some…

That's where power relationships come into play.

If the small Island country tries to play that game, they find that much needed international trade with other bigger countries starts to dry up, and fast.

Hosting public-domain content for free doesn't really produce much revenue, so for a country to sacrifice so much lost trade/needed supplies for no economic benefit doesn't really work in the long term.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#430

Post by darklajid » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

expertentipp wrote: post #416

sqldba wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> copyright laws are a fucking joke. Fixed that for you :-)

German ones are a particularly dark one.

How are German ones worse? I always think of Disney and Mosanto when I think about litigious companies..