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Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

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Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#401

Post by stordoff »

ajmurmann wrote: post #208
gpshead wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody likes an asshole, even a responsible one.

So in order not to be "an asshole" German published should just limit themselves to copyright defined by US? I'm sure Disney wouldn't be happy either if their movies that are still under copyright in the US were to be published for everyone to download on a server in some country that had shorter copyright than US. They'd try to sue as well.

I'm sure Disney wouldn't be happy, but that doesn't mean they should have legal recourse (beyond in the US - e.g. targeting downloaders) either. If German law was changed to place Snow White back under copyright, I suspect Disney would not accept that as having effect in the US.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#402

Post by Mindwipe »

stordoff wrote: post #398
quickthrower2 wrote: post #201

I have a contrary opinion to most others here. PG should take steps to honour the copyright laws of other countries. My reasoning is this: Say hypothetically I started "Project Open" in a country with zero copyright protections. Then by that country's laws, I can list Amazons entire kindle catalog, buy all their books and scan them, and make it open access. And by the PG argument, ignore the laws of other countries t…

Two counterpoints: * The subset of things that are legal in all jurisdictions is probably rather small. Let's say hypothetically that a country bans the distribution of all works in English - should PG comply with that as well? * Why should I have to care about laws beyond my jurisdiction when setting up a service? That seems like a tremendous burden. > they'd probably be characterised as a pirate site and shut down…

> Let's say hypothetically that a country bans the distribution of all works in English - should PG comply with that as well?

If there's an international treaty (or indeed several) backing it up? Probably. Unlikely that there would be though.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#403

Post by Mindwipe »

trothamel wrote: post #211

I am not a lawyer, but... I hope and suspect that the US courts would refuse to enforce the judgement against Project Gutenberg. A little bit of research shows that for a foreign judgement to be enforced, a country would need to have personal jurisdiction over the defendant. That doesn't seem to be the case here, at least under the US law that would apply if the judgement was being enforced. Given all the overreach o…

> I suspect the time is ripe for something like the SPEECH act, a law clarifies that when a US citizen makes something available on the US, that does does not subject them to the law of a non-US country - and that allows the US citizen to claim court costs if someone tries to register a judgement against them.

The US would have to pull out of all international copyright treaties and the WTO for this to happen, so it's not going to happen.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#404

Post by Mindwipe »

psergeant wrote: post #324

> So the court thinks that the presence of content in German means that courts in Germany have jurisdiction, regardless of the fact that PGLAF is entirely in the US? I suspect that if the Brits started claiming jurisdiction — well, _everywhere_ - on this basis, then that would raise eyebrows

There are some limitations on it nowadays, but they do and used to a LOT more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel_tourism

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#405

Post by Mindwipe »

Findus23 wrote: post #74

That’s odd. I always thought it was „life + 70 years“ in the whole EU. (According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright... ) Here in Austria the law regarding copyright is pretty similar to Germany so it’s really interesting why no one has sued before.

Well, "always" since about 1996 depending on the country, but yes, it is.

I am curious about what Project Gutenberg would do if this judgement was replicated in every country in the EU, which feels plausible.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#406

Post by lucb1e »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #156

This is adorable. I wish other sites like YouTube, GitHub, Wikipedia etc would also refuse to remove something or block something in particular for particular country.

(1) This is not adorable. (2) I feel this is similar to "first they came for the socialists"[1] idea: your country could be next to be blocked access from Github, Youtube or Wikipedia. It's a ridiculous idea that everyone should do this.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#407

Post by lucb1e »

shmerl wrote: post #261

70 years for copyright (no matter from what point) is a ridiculous length to begin with.

I think the lifetime of the author is not ridiculous: I made something, so I get to be the owner. That I live to be 100 years old and wrote it when I was 25 years old... I don't think that's completely unreasonable. I can also imagine that if Joe wrote something amazing, expects to feed his family with that for a few years, and dies in a car crash the next day, the poor wife or kids might enjoy some of the royalties for a few years (like 5-10 years).

When written for a company, the span should be much shorter: like with patents, one can expect them to think of a new story after a while.

So I agree that death+70 is ridiculous, but 70 by itself, so long as it's not past the author's death (unless s/he dies within 5-10 years after creating the work)... I think that's not completely crazy.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#408

Post by cornholio »

abalone wrote: post #397
gowld wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PG decided they don't have time to deal with Germany's BS, so they implemented the simplest solution guaranteed to work.

More like retaliated to make a point. For comparison, if they faced a U.S. publisher demand to block some books that were in violation, and in response they blocked all of the U.S., it would be misleading to suggest this was merely the "simplest solution".

You quoted them selectively to make your retaliation point. The full quote from the FAQ presents a very good argument, allowing access from a hostile legal jurisdiction could encourage thousands of cases and bankrupt the project:

>There are thousands of eBooks in the Project Gutenberg collection that could be subject to similar over-reaching and illigitimate actions.

>PGLAF is a small volunteer organization, with no income (it doesn't sell anything), other than donations. There is every reason to fear that this huge corporation, with the backing of the German Court, will continue to take legal action. In fact, at least one other similar complaint arrived in 2017 about different books in the Project Gutenberg collection, from another company in Germany.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#409

Post by smichel17 »

MarkMc wrote: post #195
obastani wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was pretty clear. They specifically say "certain items" were to be blocked, not the entire website.

I disagree - it's not at all clear. Most people reading the statement would assume that the book they were trying to access was among the 'certain items' blocked by the court.

I'm currently in Germany. The notice appears when trying to access any part of the catalog, even the search. Thus, I don't think this is an issue.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#410

Post by germanier »

orivej wrote: post #392
MikeGale wrote: post #306

If you want to take action, like boycott, these rent seekers. Here's a list of associated publishers: S. Fischer Verlag O.W. Barth Wolfgang Krüger Argon Verlag (de) Scherz Verlag (de) Fretz & Wasmuth Rowohlt Verlag Kiepenheuer & Witsch Verlagsgruppe Droemer Knaur Die Zeit Macmillan Farrar, Straus and Giroux Faber & Faber Henry Holt and Company Holt Paperbacks Metropolitan Books Times Books Owl Books Palgrave Macmilla…

This list is not entirely accurate: Faber & Faber is not associated with Holtzbrinck.

The UK publisher is not but they sold the US company with that name (their former subsidiary) to Holtzbrinck.
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