Is democracy dying? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is democracy dying?

#11

Post by aaronbrethorst » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:35 AM UTC

anovikov wrote: post #6

mdekkers wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who don't own significant amount of property (say, sufficient to provide rent above poverty threshold), shouldn't vote, because their votes are irresponsible by definition, and they are too easy to manipulate Can you back that statement up with data?

It is so hard to see that people who are dependent on social assistance will vote for nothing but more social assistance, dragging whole society into the hole? To me, Chinese model sounds optimal: make strict, public, rarely changing rules of who can get suffrage, which may be a combination of education, income, wealth, and some other (say criminal record) requirements, in part replaceable by one another. 6% of adult…

China is a kleptocracy. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/26/wen-jiabao-wea...

Re: Is democracy dying?

#12

Post by mdekkers » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:35 AM UTC

Yes, democracy is dying, assuming it was ever "alive" - barring small, token movements, the rich ruling classes have always been that. We, the people, are often presented with unpalatable choices and little hope of changing the actual status quo. Looking over a significant timeline, say the past 50 years, we see a trend of the rich getting richer, the poor remaining poor, and the middle classes sliding into poverty. The only relevant skillset most politicians are bringing to the table is "getting elected", so essentially democracy's leaders are the winners of a popularity contest.

As a species, we are ruled by special interest groups, greed, and lust for power. This has always been the case, and will remain to case for a long time to come. The only difference is that the ruling classes have learned that the best way to stave off violent revolution is to provide the masses with some creature comforts and the vision of "working hard (for them) to make more money (controlled by them) so you can buy more stuff (sold by them)". We live in a post-scarcity environment that is artificially kept under the thumb. The real problems we face - such as a rapidly approaching fresh water shortage, environmental calamity, and a rapidly changing production environment (robots and AI will eat the jobs) - are being ignored in preference to ever increasing profits.

Re: Is democracy dying?

#13

Post by aaronbrethorst » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:37 AM UTC

nosuchthing wrote: post #9

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure sounds like late 18th century America to me. https://a.s.kqed.net/pdf/education/digitalmedia/us-voting-ri... (Which is terrible, to be clear. I support making Election Day a national holiday and probably enfranchising 16 year olds.) Edit: anovikov, you keep getting flagged and I have a question for you: I am genuinely curious as to whether you actually believe this, or if you’re trying to make a Swiftian ‘eat th…

Election day on a Tuesday is INSANE. It almost seems like that is designed to prevent the working class from voting.

I don’t know if that’s the explicit aim, but it certainly has that effect. I’m grateful that I live in Washington, where we get our ballots a couple weeks before Election Day, which gives us a chance to do proper due diligence and return our ballots via mail.

Return rates still aren’t high enough, but at least it’s not because people are prevented from making it to their polling place because of other obligations. One step at a time...

Re: Is democracy dying?

#14

Post by mdekkers » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:37 AM UTC

ianai wrote: post #4

mdekkers wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who don't own significant amount of property (say, sufficient to provide rent above poverty threshold), shouldn't vote, because their votes are irresponsible by definition, and they are too easy to manipulate Can you back that statement up with data?

I’m hoping I read that wrong because it sure sounds tyrannical.

Agreed. OP is probably talking about the Chinese model

Re: Is democracy dying?

#15

Post by lgregg » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:37 AM UTC

nosuchthing wrote: post #9

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure sounds like late 18th century America to me. https://a.s.kqed.net/pdf/education/digitalmedia/us-voting-ri... (Which is terrible, to be clear. I support making Election Day a national holiday and probably enfranchising 16 year olds.) Edit: anovikov, you keep getting flagged and I have a question for you: I am genuinely curious as to whether you actually believe this, or if you’re trying to make a Swiftian ‘eat th…

Election day on a Tuesday is INSANE. It almost seems like that is designed to prevent the working class from voting.

It is insane. You would think with our technical advancement as a country that we would be able to vote remotely and also obtain good information about candidates and their policies.

Re: Is democracy dying?

#16

Post by anovikov » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:38 AM UTC

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #5

ianai wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m hoping I read that wrong because it sure sounds tyrannical.

Sure sounds like late 18th century America to me. https://a.s.kqed.net/pdf/education/digitalmedia/us-voting-ri... (Which is terrible, to be clear. I support making Election Day a national holiday and probably enfranchising 16 year olds.) Edit: anovikov, you keep getting flagged and I have a question for you: I am genuinely curious as to whether you actually believe this, or if you’re trying to make a Swiftian ‘eat th…

Yes late 18th century America sounds about right. Of course i don't mean slavery or racism, i just mean that people who don't own property, shouldn't vote. Universal suffrage is a Commie invention, they invented it exactly to crush capitalist societies, because they knew a democratic society with universal suffrage is doomed. Only way to make it survive long term is something like Putinism: keep the elections, but make them irrelevant, and let the wealthy people still decide things in the close circle.

Re: Is democracy dying?

#17

Post by aaronbrethorst » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:39 AM UTC

mdekkers wrote: post #12

Yes, democracy is dying, assuming it was ever "alive" - barring small, token movements, the rich ruling classes have always been that. We, the people, are often presented with unpalatable choices and little hope of changing the actual status quo. Looking over a significant timeline, say the past 50 years, we see a trend of the rich getting richer, the poor remaining poor, and the middle classes sliding into poverty.…

“Being too cynical and pleasantly surprised is not more sophisticated than being too idealistic and disappointed.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/jonlovett/status/8899319641442467...

Re: Is democracy dying?

#18

Post by checker659 » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:41 AM UTC

mdekkers wrote: post #12

Yes, democracy is dying, assuming it was ever "alive" - barring small, token movements, the rich ruling classes have always been that. We, the people, are often presented with unpalatable choices and little hope of changing the actual status quo. Looking over a significant timeline, say the past 50 years, we see a trend of the rich getting richer, the poor remaining poor, and the middle classes sliding into poverty.…

> We, the people,

Reminds me of Animal Farm

Re: Is democracy dying?

#19

Post by aaronbrethorst » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:43 AM UTC

lgregg wrote: post #15

nosuchthing wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Election day on a Tuesday is INSANE. It almost seems like that is designed to prevent the working class from voting.

It is insane. You would think with our technical advancement as a country that we would be able to vote remotely and also obtain good information about candidates and their policies.

Washington state has figured this out. I think Oregon has too.

Re: Is democracy dying?

#20

Post by mdekkers » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 8:43 AM UTC

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17

mdekkers wrote: post #12

Yes, democracy is dying, assuming it was ever "alive" - barring small, token movements, the rich ruling classes have always been that. We, the people, are often presented with unpalatable choices and little hope of changing the actual status quo. Looking over a significant timeline, say the past 50 years, we see a trend of the rich getting richer, the poor remaining poor, and the middle classes sliding into poverty.…

“Being too cynical and pleasantly surprised is not more sophisticated than being too idealistic and disappointed.” https://mobile.twitter.com/jonlovett/status/8899319641442467...

Thank you for the quote, but unfortunately I am too slow-witted to see the relevance.