Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#311

Post by mcguire » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:07 AM UTC

slake wrote: post #308

mcguire wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really asserting that a) anything in the German language falls under the jurisdiction of the German government, and that b) a relationship bearing on legal jurisdiction between two otherwise completely unrelated entities can be created by otherwise unrelated third parties?

Point a is covered under GDPR. If you have German on your website their courts have jurisdiction. The language is so vague that they will have jurisdiction over all the world when it comes to PI privacy laws.

That's...a little disturbing.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#312

Post by Xylakant » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:11 AM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #292

Xylakant wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that’s not the effect. If you make a website in the US hosted on US servers that does not obviously target german customers then you don’t fall under german jurisdiction. It’s not sufficient that your site is generally accessible from germany. However, if you do add things as “we ship to germany” to a shop then you fall under german jurisdiction - which is fine in my books, because the customer should have a simp…

Or, if you add German translations? What if you add a link to Google translate, allowing German translations?

If you that in the intention of targeting german citizens (or all people of the world), yes, that could lead to a court assuming jurisdiction.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#313

Post by madez » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:14 AM UTC

To put things into perspective, the plaintiffs lawyers, Waldorf Frommer, are known for shady tactics. They have built an industry of putting immense pressure on private people. They don't shy away from lawsuits because they are cheap for them and menacing for the people. They don't always win, but under the line it is a very profitable business for them; they employ about 60 lawyers.

The public broadcast made documentaries about their cease-and-desist-industry against private people. Even the German Bundestag changed multiple times the law to stop that madness, but it took many years because the christian party opposed effective changes. Now, even though the law has changed on the 13th October 2017, they continue to pressure people into paying.

Some courts are heavily in favour of them, most notably the Amtsgericht München. This makes the situation even worse for people who cannot afford to appeal a judgement even though they are convinced they are not guilty, because the financial risk is too high. I would not be surprised if the judgement in this case gets overthrown in a higher court.

The defendants german lawyers, WILDE BEUGER SOLMECKE, are known for legal defense against Waldorf Frommer. Personally, I don't trust them completely because they offer an all-inclusive legal defense package that is conveniently priced at 2/3 of the value Waldorf Frommer asks for. This industry is a huge employment scheme for lawyers.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#314

Post by adrianN » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:22 AM UTC

Findus23 wrote: post #97

I’m really for open access to old books, but for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws. After all those are the only ones I can directly influence (by voting, etc.) If we’d start to ignore this (even if it is in my advantage in this case), this means I have no influence any more on how companies are allowed to interact with me (which shouldn’t be the cas…

Only if you really don't like the idea of the Internet should you advocate for that kind of thing. If every website would have to comply with every country's laws this would immediately lead to almost complete segregation of the Internet. Why should anybody take the risks of making their websites internationally available? It's hard enough to ensure that your website complies with your own country's laws. It's impossible to do that for every country.

If a country doesn't like what a website provides they are free to block it at the border, just like with physical goods.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#315

Post by Xylakant » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:26 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #193

falcolas wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For two reasons - other publishers were poking around about doing the same thing (minimize risk of it happening again with other titles), and to keep on the good side of the court (to ease appeals). Can't say I blame them for either reason.

Also, it was a great rebuke to S. Fischer Verlag, GmbH.

At the cost of harming all german users. The Fischer Verlag honestly couldn’t care less - they probably like the outcome. Now even books that they wouldn’t have a legal recourse against are no longer available and must be bought. What an unexpected bonus!

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#316

Post by Xylakant » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:30 AM UTC

swimfar wrote: post #161

Xylakant wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> law that extends the copyright length to 2100 years, creating court orders for the 1 billion people who own a Bible or other old text without paying license fees, and collecting all the money in the world? Generally speaking: Nothing. Practically speaking: Impossibility to enforce unless you’re a major power. Look how american laws often get enforced world wide while North Korean law doesn’t practically matter.

This is a sincere question. What American laws are enforced outside the US?

FACTA, the dreaded E-8BEN form that I get to fill in every time I happen to have a US customer, copyright, see Kim Dotcom, access to emails stored by Microsoft Europe (though MS is fighting that).

Honestly, laws have always been enforced internationally, that’s why extradition treaties exist. The internet just makes it much much simpler to commit a crime on foreign soil.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#317

Post by tunichtgut » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:38 AM UTC

These copyright laws are such a joke! Typical of nowadays germany. Nothing is working anymore, except you run an army of lawyers and "cash-into" the local government. Its such a joke, rly.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#318

Post by mirimir » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:38 AM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #315

mirimir wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it was a great rebuke to S. Fischer Verlag, GmbH.

At the cost of harming all german users. The Fischer Verlag honestly couldn’t care less - they probably like the outcome. Now even books that they wouldn’t have a legal recourse against are no longer available and must be bought. What an unexpected bonus!

Yes, that is true, and unfortunate. However, under US copyright law, Project Gutenberg does have the right to host those books. And it's never prudent to compromise regarding illegal demands.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#319

Post by Tomte » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:41 AM UTC

piotrkaminski wrote: post #244

robjwells wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws I think this is an untenable position as it would mean that any website, published from any country, hosted on servers in any country, would have to abide by the laws of the world’s 193 countries. Project Gutenberg’s argument is that they are only a US concern — everyone involved officially is in the US, and th…

> This is distinct from, say, a company explicitly providing a service to customers in a particular country (cf GDPR). In what ways do you think the GDPR is distinct from the laws in the present case? Let's say, for argument's sake, that gutenberg.org starts capturing PII about visitors and storing it without conforming to the GDPR. Do you think it would be fair for the EU to sue them and (attempt to) enforce their l…

Of course it would be fair. Because EU citizens would be harmed.

That‘s the duty of a state. Protect its citizens.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#320

Post by Tomte » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:42 AM UTC

cloakandswagger wrote: post #160

Findus23 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. Following every law is neither practical and in the case of censorship even counterproductive. I just wanted to point out that the reaction of the court isn’t as entirely pointless as it may seem on first thought.

PGLAF is incorporated in the US, their site is hosted in the US and their employees live in the US. Tell me again why they need to worry about the law of any country but the US? It's up to the German courts/government to deny access to sites that break their laws, not try to impose their law on people outside their jurisdiction.

You don‘t want to tell me that a US court would show any restraint if a non-US based person violated American copyright?