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Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

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Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#301

Post by mcguire »

freeflight wrote: post #98
lovich wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then Germany as an entity can deal with the results of their society being structured in a way that allows those special interests to have that level of control. America has the same problems as well but it's be unreasonable to expect people in other sovereignties to make special accommodations for me just because my government is making me follow a different set of rules

> it's be unreasonable to expect people in other sovereignties to make special accommodations for me Nobody is expecting PG to do anything like that, what is expected is that PG just removes these 18 books from German access, if they don't then the German publisher can cease&desist them over giving access to said books, which would have no effect at all on GP due to it being an entity that's registered in California,…

There is nothing in the decision about "German access".

"The defendants are ordered, on penalty of an administrative fine of up to EUR 250,000.00 or, alternatively, imprisonment of up to 6 months, for each case of non- compliance, said imprisonment to be imposed on the second defendant, to cease and desist from making the following works publicly available or letting them be made publicly available, namely:..."

Plus damages.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#305

Post by TheCoelacanth »

harshreality wrote: post #192
jhasse wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this is an untenable position as it would mean that any website, published from any country, hosted on servers in any country, would have to abide by the laws of the world’s 193 countries. No. If you read the court order, they are arguing, that gutenberg.org is targeted at Germans. There are a few reason: 1. there's a link on the front page to view the site in German 2. there's a similar German project: htt…

None of those pass muster. 1. There are plenty of German-speakers not living in Germany. 2. Is that organization somehow affiliated with project gutenberg? Or did it simply use the name, which gutenberg probably doesn't care to trademark and wouldn't have the funds to legally enforce anyway. 3. You must know that hardly anyone uses .us. 4. So all it takes to be subject to a country's courts is for that country's medi…

> Is that organization somehow affiliated with project gutenberg? Or did it simply use the name, which gutenberg probably doesn't care to trademark and wouldn't have the funds to legally enforce anyway.

The failure to protect their trademark in Germany would actually demonstrate that they are not operating in Germany.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#306

Post by MikeGale »

If you want to take action, like boycott, these rent seekers. Here's a list of associated publishers:

    S. Fischer Verlag
        O.W. Barth
        Wolfgang Krüger
        Argon Verlag (de)
        Scherz Verlag (de)
            Fretz & Wasmuth
    Rowohlt Verlag
    Kiepenheuer & Witsch
    Verlagsgruppe Droemer Knaur
    Die Zeit
    Macmillan
    Farrar, Straus and Giroux
        Faber & Faber
    Henry Holt and Company
        Holt Paperbacks
        Metropolitan Books
        Times Books
        Owl Books
    Palgrave Macmillan
    Picador
    Roaring Brook Press
        Neal Porter Books
        First Second Books
    St. Martin's Press
    Tom Doherty Associates
        Tor Books
        Forge Books
    Bedford, Freeman and Worth Publishing Group
        W.H. Freeman
        Bedford-St. Martin's
        Worth Publishers
    Hayden-McNeil
    Nature Publishing Group
        Scientific American
    Audio Renaissance
    Renaissance Media
    Macmillan Publishers
        Palgrave Macmillan
        Pan Macmillan
            Macmillan
            Pan Books
            Picador
            Macmillan Children's Books
            Campbell Books
            Priddy Books
            Boxtree
            Sidgwick & Jackson
        Nature Publishing Group
        Macmillan Education

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#307

Post by toyg »

bubblethink wrote: post #275
toyg wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) the EU moving away from US economic and foreign policy is a relatively recent development. On most issues, from Crimea to copyright, you can usually start from the assumption that European and American positions are somewhat aligned. The exceptions (privacy etc) are well-known exactly because they are exceptions. 2) EU countries have a significant skin in the creative-sector game, in a way they really don't in oth…

>likely contribute a pretty penny to the publisher's bottom line Is there any evidence for this ? Judging by the dates of the works, this looks like it is just a shakedown and an attempt to set precedent.

Thomas Mann is a giant of European literature, a Nobel Prize read in universities all across Europe. Chances are it's compulsory reading in German high schools in some way. The Buddenbrooks alone will probably sell a good amount of copies each year.

Heinrich Mann was a very important figure during Weimar. Again, chances are it pops up in compulsory reads.

I honestly don't know Döblin, but looking at how his most famous book is described, he seems to be another key read about the Weimar years - again, likely compulsory at school in Germany.

Schoolbooks make a lot of money.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#308

Post by slake »

mcguire wrote: post #271
jhasse wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the internet I still don't understand what that means exactly. > whereas Project Gutenberg has zero connection to Germany. I disagree. > what does the nationality of Gutenberg the historical person have to do with anything? Is shakespeare.com subject to uk laws? There's a lot inbetween of zero connection with country X and subject to it's law. So regarding shakesbear.com: No, not necessarily.

Are you really asserting that a) anything in the German language falls under the jurisdiction of the German government, and that b) a relationship bearing on legal jurisdiction between two otherwise completely unrelated entities can be created by otherwise unrelated third parties?

Point a is covered under GDPR. If you have German on your website their courts have jurisdiction. The language is so vague that they will have jurisdiction over all the world when it comes to PI privacy laws.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#309

Post by mcguire »

Findus23 wrote: post #97

I’m really for open access to old books, but for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws. After all those are the only ones I can directly influence (by voting, etc.) If we’d start to ignore this (even if it is in my advantage in this case), this means I have no influence any more on how companies are allowed to interact with me (which shouldn’t be the cas…

There is an established treaty for handling this particular issue. The court in question has decided not to follow that treaty.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#310

Post by tempestn »

762236 wrote: post #295
curiousfab wrote: post #40

PG did exactly the right thing here. By only blocking these 18 books, nobody would have taken much notice of this. By blocking all German users from the site, they will get a lot of media attention, and S. Fischer Verlag will get a lot of bad press. Whether or not they will move from their position is questionable, but it will hurt them. Just sent a small donation to PG. Making an effort not to buy books from that pu…

But did they do the right thing by participating in a court that has no jurisdiction? Why would they participate in that? Doesn't participating extend legitimacy to the claims, and make one subject the outcome (including paying the legal fees when losing)?

No more so than if they didn't participate. It's generally suggested that if someone sues you in a jurisdiction that you care about, you show up to defend yourself. Otherwise you'll simply have summary judgement entered against you. Now, in this case since the plaintiffs won, it probably wouldn't have been any worse—and likely cheaper due to lower legal costs—but they couldn't know that going in.
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