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China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

nytimes.com

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Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#91

Post by coldtea »

EggsOnToast wrote: post #54

This is just me soapboxing, but I would argue that situations like this illustrate a need for online social platforms run by the state. I realize the obvious vulnerabilities of such a setup, but if we believe free speech to be an essential element of our societies then we need social platforms beholden only to our own laws even if they simply exist in parallel to private platforms. The internet, and social media in t…

>This is just me soapboxing, but I would argue that situations like this illustrate a need for online social platforms run by the state.

Most major social media collaborate so well with their country's elites, governments and national interests, that they might as well be run by their state.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#92

Post by coldtea »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #38
ilamont wrote: post #17

Facebook suspended Mr. Guo’s account. In a statement, the company said the account published the personal information of others without their consent, which violated the platform’s policies. Zuckerberg wants to be in China in such a bad way. He's learned Mandarin, plays up his family connections (via his wife's family), and puts on the charm when visiting China. He's created relationships with officials at every leve…

The way Zuckerberg has gone about it, I think he is awkwardly a sinophile, he isn't doing those things just to (or even primarily to) get Facebook into China.

As if he lets his personal whims, and not billion(s) of dollar FB profit dictate his actions?

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#93

Post by kyboren »

EggsOnToast wrote: post #54

This is just me soapboxing, but I would argue that situations like this illustrate a need for online social platforms run by the state. I realize the obvious vulnerabilities of such a setup, but if we believe free speech to be an essential element of our societies then we need social platforms beholden only to our own laws even if they simply exist in parallel to private platforms. The internet, and social media in t…

I disagree. The notion of inserting the state as the primary social intermediary in our society scares the living daylights out of me.

I do agree with your thesis that we need social platforms immune to arbitrary censorship, however.

I think the solution is some sort of trustless P2P system, where no one entity exercises ultimate control, and censorship is impossible, or at least very difficult. Of course that means that the platform won't be beholden to any nation's laws, irrespective of whether those laws are, in my opinion, just (criminalizing distribution of child pornography, for example) or not (criminalizing open political dissent, for example).

However, if I have to choose between absolute free speech and government- or megacorp-controlled, surveilled, and mediated social interaction, I choose absolute free speech.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#94

Post by coldtea »

mc32 wrote: post #77
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sinophile" is a pretty standard word with no perverted fetish meaning, see wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinophile > A Sinophile or a Chinophile is a person who demonstrates a strong interest and love for Chinese culture or its people.[1] It is also commonly used to describe those knowledgeable of Chinese history and culture (such as scholars and students), non-native Chinese language speakers, pro-Chines…

Sorry, yes, I know the diff. I mean, I know Francophiles and Anglophiles [and obvs. Sinophiles]. And I meant fetish not in the sexual fetish context, but fetish as in fetishizing something. Do they mean Zuck fetishizes China [as in ethnic fetishism [1]]or that he simply "likes" China, but does not fetishize it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_fetishism

There's no real difference between "likes X" and "fetishizes X" except in the minds of people who think liking X too much or in a manner they don't approve is bad.

Fetishizes is a pop-psychology term.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#95

Post by seanmcdirmid »

coldtea wrote: post #92
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way Zuckerberg has gone about it, I think he is awkwardly a sinophile, he isn't doing those things just to (or even primarily to) get Facebook into China.

As if he lets his personal whims, and not billion(s) of dollar FB profit dictate his actions?

Ya, isn't it obvious? The guy is definitely awkward. I think Chinese like to think he is doing it for the money, because they feel like it gives them face and they can't imagine anything else being possible. Americans look at it quite differently of course, they see some guy who obviously has a thing for China and is doing a bunch of cringey stuff because of that.

If he was doing that for the money, you'd think he would consult first with someone who actually knew better.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#96

Post by coldtea »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #95
coldtea wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if he lets his personal whims, and not billion(s) of dollar FB profit dictate his actions?

Ya, isn't it obvious? The guy is definitely awkward. I think Chinese like to think he is doing it for the money, because they feel like it gives them face and they can't imagine anything else being possible. Americans look at it quite differently of course, they see some guy who obviously has a thing for China and is doing a bunch of cringey stuff because of that. If he was doing that for the money, you'd think he wo…

>The guy is definitely awkward.

The guy is the CEO of a multi-billion dollar behemoth. He was always awkward, but he is also very calculated. He wants in on the Chinese market.

>If he was doing that for the money, you'd think he would consult first with someone who actually knew better.

And do what differently?

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#97

Post by seanmcdirmid »

coldtea wrote: post #96
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, isn't it obvious? The guy is definitely awkward. I think Chinese like to think he is doing it for the money, because they feel like it gives them face and they can't imagine anything else being possible. Americans look at it quite differently of course, they see some guy who obviously has a thing for China and is doing a bunch of cringey stuff because of that. If he was doing that for the money, you'd think he wo…

> The guy is definitely awkward. The guy is the CEO of a multi-billion dollar behemoth. He was always awkward, but he is also very calculated. He wants in on the Chinese market. > If he was doing that for the money, you'd think he would consult first with someone who actually knew better. And do what differently?

> He was always awkward, but he is also very calculated. He wants in on the Chinese market.

That is of course the only possibility Chinese can think of, while Americans just think he is being awkward.

> And do what differently?

Not do a bunch of cringe worthy stuff like asking Xi to name his child or jogging in Beijing smog.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#98

Post by forapurpose »

derriz wrote: post #89
blackrock wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, they requested that Red Dawn be re-edited, so that China was not the bad guy. I have not seen the movie, nor do I care to. However, let's think about this situation for a moment, as rational adults. And if you can, then try to think about this from the other side. There is a lot of bad blood coming out of American media about China. It's in the news, the movies, the TV shows, the literature, it's everywhere. Un…

I understand that no one likes being painted as the bad guy, but this is a very odd claim: "Americans movies will certainly never paint America as the bad guy, despite the fact that millions have died at the receiving end of American weapons. In fact, I can't recall any media where America is painted as the bad guy." I'm not American but this suggests you have experienced very little of the variety of American movies…

The GP comment has the hallmarks of Chinese gov't propaganda, which reaches even here. You'll see it every time criticism of China appears: 'The U.S. does it too.' Sometimes the application of it is just laughable:

> Americans movies will certainly never paint America as the bad guy

Wow.

> There is a lot of bad blood coming out of American media about China

The paranoid, we're-picked-on perspective.

Much of the comment is directly from the rhetoric of the Chinese Communist Party and government:

> Anyways, movies are political statements. When you make it too real, then it hits too close to home. And there are certain dangers with that kind of propaganda. And it will certainly upset the people on the receiving end of it.

Everything is political. Avoid politics that challenge the Chinese Communist Party for reasons of public order, which just upsets people - the public doesn't want to think about politics and become upset. Promoting Chinese Communist Party-approved politics is ok, because that increases public order.

> Stick to making movies about aliens and their probing devices, zombies, and superheros in tights. Or killing the evil German Nazis. Nobody will question these kinds of movies.

Uh, I'll try to keep that in mind. We wouldn't want to make a movie that anyone questioned!

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#99

Post by coldtea »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #97
coldtea wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The guy is definitely awkward. The guy is the CEO of a multi-billion dollar behemoth. He was always awkward, but he is also very calculated. He wants in on the Chinese market. > If he was doing that for the money, you'd think he would consult first with someone who actually knew better. And do what differently?

> He was always awkward, but he is also very calculated. He wants in on the Chinese market. That is of course the only possibility Chinese can think of, while Americans just think he is being awkward. > And do what differently? Not do a bunch of cringe worthy stuff like asking Xi to name his child or jogging in Beijing smog.

>That is of course the only possibility Chinese can think of, while Americans just think he is being awkward.

Well, I'm not Chinese, and I think those who think he's being awkward are naive.

>Not do a bunch of cringe worthy stuff like asking Xi to name his child or jogging in Beijing smog.

Cringe-worthy to whom? Because the Chinese audience will probably eat-up that kind of soapy stuff, the same way Americans cherish the cliche stuff performed by people coming into the US and seeking their business (businesses, actors, etc).

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#100

Post by blackrock »

forapurpose wrote: post #98
derriz wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that no one likes being painted as the bad guy, but this is a very odd claim: "Americans movies will certainly never paint America as the bad guy, despite the fact that millions have died at the receiving end of American weapons. In fact, I can't recall any media where America is painted as the bad guy." I'm not American but this suggests you have experienced very little of the variety of American movies…

The GP comment has the hallmarks of Chinese gov't propaganda, which reaches even here. You'll see it every time criticism of China appears: 'The U.S. does it too.' Sometimes the application of it is just laughable: > Americans movies will certainly never paint America as the bad guy Wow. > There is a lot of bad blood coming out of American media about China The paranoid, we're-picked-on perspective. Much of the comme…

Everything you said, just reinforced my positions.

You can't even acknowledge that my positions may have some merit.

And that's the problem with trying to have a rational discussion on sensitive things like this. You get people like this guy, that only sees it from his angle. And this whole thing just becomes another echo chamber.

You should consider reading this:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/03/the-social-media-ech...

At this point, you can have your say. And we can agree to disagree.

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