Live data from Hacker News

Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

arstechnica.com

411–420 of 464 posts

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#411
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN policy states that topics should be relevant to tech and startups. This topic in particular clearly is and also garnered a lot of interest. Arguably a majority might actually be interested in discussing this topic as they might be perceived as a majority and be potential targets of this kind of discrimination. When an ideologically possessed social justice minority then in violation of HN policy and the interest o…

> "HN policy states that topics should be relevant to tech and startups." Something along these lines is often-cited, but isn't supported by the guidelines or by comments by the moderators. From the guidelines: > "On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellect…

That’s very reasonable. Maybe there are new functionality that can be implemented to at least bring back to the frontpage flagged articles of interest to the majority?

I think there needs to be a punishment function for ideologically motivated flagging and maybe even other actions done by such a minority, so that it cause the articles to stay on the frontpage longer when brought back in order to dissuade the behavior.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately no. However, I do not personally use reddit etc. I think we need to do everything we can to highlight injustices in the power applied to force only one viewpoint to be heard. In addition to this social justice warriors need to receive negative social and life repercussions for their tyrannical actions.

> In addition to this social justice warriors need to receive negative social and life repercussions for their tyrannical actions. You realize this is exactly a description of 'social justice' and it is exactly this that is the problem

We as a society agree to state sanctioned consequences that are similar to actions unacceptable to individuals. The difference is that there need to be a sense of justice and recourse, which social justice warriors don’t think should apply to their actions. Acting like a social justice warrior in the workplace should for instance be a firable offence, and things like doxxing should receive severe punishment.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that’s because of aggressive efforts to recruit women, as well as lawsuits, in the 1980s and 1990s, to counteract the long history of discrimination (the field as 95% men in the 1960s). If people back then hadn’t done that, we wouldn’t be getting the “best person” today. Is that not a counterfactual? > Your comment may be factually correct, but doesn't make clear how it applies to its parent. I didn't realise i…

You get off on the wrong foot assuming I’m trying to prove the counterfactual. This is a discussion of gender disparity in engineering, why would I be trying to prove what law would’ve been like if there hadn’t been measures to address gender disparity? Rather, I used a counterfactual to restate an epidemiological inference. “City A introduced a sewer system in 1845, cholera rates went down. City B did not, and chole…

You're assuming with certainty that there was a causal relationship. Given that assumption you were comfortable in proclaiming the counterfactual to be true. You "knew" it was true because you "knew" the mechanics of the world, thus could predict the counterfactual truth-value.

Did you use something like Hill's criteria for causation[0]? To establish anything? Like in epidemiology? It's how they can make such statements.

I do take your point about how one can be somewhat certain of a counterfactual. You couldn't be though; because you've got no criteria by which to judge the causality.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Hill_criteria

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#414
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "HN policy states that topics should be relevant to tech and startups." Something along these lines is often-cited, but isn't supported by the guidelines or by comments by the moderators. From the guidelines: > "On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellect…

That’s very reasonable. Maybe there are new functionality that can be implemented to at least bring back to the frontpage flagged articles of interest to the majority? I think there needs to be a punishment function for ideologically motivated flagging and maybe even other actions done by such a minority, so that it cause the articles to stay on the frontpage longer when brought back in order to dissuade the behavior…

There's already such functionality, for both of the things you mention: emailing the mods to bring it to their attention. The mods have been known to disable flags for submissions.

That said, bringing up again "ideologically motivated flagging" ignores other reasons people may be flagging, such as the belief that such discussions aren't constructive on HN, independent of one's ideological or political position. And the mods do punish those that abuse flags and votes and submissions and comments. (And many who are so penalized think it's applied unfairly to them, from every ideological persuasion. Or that it's done ideologically rather than for incivility or other abuse.)

Here's how I'd break down my position in a nutshell:

- These are important topics.

- These are topics I think need to be discussed.

- HN empirically has not been a place where such topics have been interestingly and constructvely discussed.

∴ Such topics are for the most part best discussed elsewhere (i.e., not HN).

What I read from your comment is that you think these topics should be discussed (which I agree with) and should be discussed on HN, which I don't because I don't think that HN is structurally fit to handle such discussions.

So, with that, I think there are two questions that I would like you to address:

- Do you think HN as it is now is the place to constructively have these discussions?

If you answer yes to this question, then you and I disagree, and as I noted upstream, I think the evidence is on my side. If you answer no, the next question is

- Do you think HN should be a place to constructively have these discussions?

If you answer yes, what would make HN a place where such discussions could take place? There are certain things I think are criticial to being able to discuss contentious topics constructivelly. Those include being able to identify over time the people you're engaged in discussion with. This doens't mean know absolutely: pseodonyms are fine. However, you can't get very deep into a discussion on contentious issues if you aren't able to take others on good faith, and you can't do that without establishing some kind of reputation. Repeatedly using throwaways works against this.

Likewise, there needs to be a common understanding of civility. The definition of civility isn't universal, and changes from forum to forum (both online and in real life). There's quite a bit of disagreement on HN of what constitutes civil behavior, which again makes it difficult to dig into contentious discussions constructively: a shared understanding of civility allows people to engage on equal footing. This isn't a failure of any one group or perspective. It's just a reflection of human nature. This isn't different from real life: there are some topics you discuss with your family, others with your friends (and different groups of friends), others at work. Each has their own norms that allows those different topics to be discussed constructively.

It also means that that each point shouldn't be relitigated again and again. That sucks all the air out of the room and gets in the way of people having interesting discussions on a whole host of other interesting, non-contentious topics which HN explicitly has as a goal. This is really no different than if every discussion boiled down to a language flamewar or similar repetition. It's not healthy for the forum.

This isn't an exhaustive list, but I think it captures some of the important characteristics that make constructive discussion on contentious topics possible. You may disagree.

HN, for better or worse, isn't built like that. It wouldn't be HN if it were substantially different. I'd love to see a forum that makes such discussions possible. I don't expect (nor necessarily want) HN to be that place.

Each of these is getting longer than the last, so I'll try to refrain from commenting more on this, at least until I find a publisher. ;)

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#415
post #9

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16497551

This one has been flagged out also. It’s beginning to look like HN really doesn’t like this story, since it’s the third time in the last 24 hours they’ve blown it off the front page.

[deleted]

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In addition to this social justice warriors need to receive negative social and life repercussions for their tyrannical actions. You realize this is exactly a description of 'social justice' and it is exactly this that is the problem

We as a society agree to state sanctioned consequences that are similar to actions unacceptable to individuals. The difference is that there need to be a sense of justice and recourse, which social justice warriors don’t think should apply to their actions. Acting like a social justice warrior in the workplace should for instance be a firable offence, and things like doxxing should receive severe punishment.

This is now officially beyond parody.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#417
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you guys recruit and how has that influenced the number of law school graduates by gender assuming you are not a professor? I see that woman now are the majority of law graduates [0] which I find doubtful that it is attributable to corporate recruiting tactics. [0]: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/16/business/dealbook/wome...

At a higher-ranked law school, 80% of graduates will go into private practice, about evenly split by gender. What the prospects are at the other end has a big impact on the people coming in. As to what law firms do—they do about the same thing any Big Corp. does, and it works out at the entry level (at least as to gender) because the pool of applicants is gender balanced. The more interesting question is how they got…

why do you think the push to hire more women is the reason for the current gender balance in law hiring rather than a simple increase in the number of women choosing to pursue legal qualifications? there is a huge push to hire more women in tech yet it has done little so far to change the balance. there is certainly no hard barrier on women pursuing a tech career as there was for women pursuing a career in corporate law before the 80s.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#418
post #126

I have to say, as an Asian male I found this comment by dirtyid in the article to be succinct and all too true: > "Pour one out for Asian males. Get screwed by affirmative action in education, media representation and now employment but can't get screwed on dating apps." Asian men constantly get grouped as a single entity when it comes to tech and aren't considered an added element of diverseness within the industry…

People don’t care about Asian males (and I am one) because they’re the highest earning demographic in the country. In a country where you die if you can’t afford health care, it’s quite reasonable to take the tack that economic challenges are in a different league than dating challenges. Combatting discrimination isn’t about some platonic abstraction. It’s about money, wealth, jobs, health and criminal justice outcom…

[deleted]

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Built micro services that served millions of api calls per second in golang” how is that self identifiable?

But how are you going to use something as bland and generic like that to differentiate your applicants? You've got twenty applicants, and they've all built a production API using Go or some equivalent language and they used some design pattern like micro-services or something else. Now what? Plus in my field even something as generic as that would identify me.

I still fail to see how that generic tagline (albeit admittedly bad for a resume) is self identifiable. What industry are you in that is so small that one could find you from that?
Post reply on HN