Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure I follow. Screening detects cancer that is already there, hopefully in early stages when it might be treated more easily. In both cases, cancer is already present.
Treating infectious disease than can cause cancer (H. pylori, HPV) has nothing to do with cancer treatment. Treating, for example, thyroid or prostate cancers that would not have killed the person improves cancer survival statistics but nothing else.
Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
201–210 of 256 posts
Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
#202I was preparing to make a long post asking for ideas/help (been saying that for weeks but it's ready and I was waiting to Monday since weekends are slower) This sort of thing ruined my life, cost me everything, and has finally brought me to the precipice. I was convinced 15 years ago to have surgery to "prevent later disability" and it ironically left me disabled and in severe pain. I later found out abroad from seve…
>> vague forms hurridly shoved in front of me as I was being prepped and legally he as allowed to One of the many problems when the legal system has just become "formalities" that only get used by the powerful against everybody else. Last time we had a baby the hospital was so prepared they were able to bill us for the entire pregnancy when we arrived for our first prenatal check-up. But somehow they couldn't show my…
This has to be contestable in court
Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Try walking into a hospital and asking how much something costs. I can tell you that you won't/can't get an answer in over 60%, specifically because the software they use does not show prices only billing codes! So the person providing care can not find out how much it costs... how are you supposed to choose? Exactly. This is exactly the problem. The current situation bears no resemblance to a market. Price can't s…
How do I shop for prices when I'm bleeding out in the back of an ambulance?
Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> vague forms hurridly shoved in front of me as I was being prepped and legally he as allowed to One of the many problems when the legal system has just become "formalities" that only get used by the powerful against everybody else. Last time we had a baby the hospital was so prepared they were able to bill us for the entire pregnancy when we arrived for our first prenatal check-up. But somehow they couldn't show my…
> they billed her regardless of correctness of timeliness until she was dilated to an 8. This has to be contestable in court
Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps you could share the procedures so others would know to be skeptical if they are in the same situation?
The nutshell is don't ever have foot surgery unless it's to repair a catastrophic injury/trauma and there is no choice if you want to save the foot. The risk/failure rates are so high and not honestly explained. I was left with ruined joints, damaged tendons, nerve damage, and RSD that spread up my legs and affects my whole body to a degree. I was misinformed and flat out lied to and have never met someone to this da…
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/04/08/a-knife-in-the...
Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
Healthcare is expensive for multiple reasons, the fee structure being a part of it. If insurance were decoupled from the employer, the individuals would be able to pick the best insurance as opposed to a negotiated insurace by the employeer. That would move people to what is generally considered the best insurance options and that alone makes the competition a lot better. As a patient you dont know which one is bette…
This is such a US-centric view that the free market will just magically fix things. I used to hold the same view. Now? I think truly individual insurance would be an unmitigated disaster. The problem? Pre-existing conditions. Let's say you have lifelong degenerative condition that will require constant medical care. What incentive does an insurance company have to take you on? You can try to make discriminating again…
Funny that I'm not american :)
> The problem? Pre-existing conditions. Let's say you have lifelong degenerative condition that will require constant medical care. What incentive does an insurance company have to take you on? You can try to make discriminating against pre-existing conditions illegal but insurance companies know who their most expensive clients are and will try and find a reason to invalidate them.
This is a serious concern. However, bear in mind that when the state is the one that faces that issue, they can easily end up simply not providing care at all. What is better, very expensive insurance premiums or no treatment at all?
In the end, in a free market, I would expect that some insurances will be precisely for sick people, they will have expensive premiums but optimize the value provided and the client they take. There is something you cant run away from: very sick people are very expensive. And the one that bears the cost for their own health is ultimately yourself.
> The downside to this is that elderly people cost more but get charged the same as young people. This makes no sense for young people so they leave the private system and health premiums go up. This has been a decades-long problem.
The great case for price differenciation. I dont know the details in the US, but in argentina the elderly pay a lot more. I'm talking about 3-5x. There is a public system but those that can afford it get better care in private.
> Why employer-based insurance works is that it groups people. It's really a form of collective bargaining. > If you insure one person you look at how much that person costs you vs their premiums. If you insure 50,000 employees of a company then you're looking at revenue vs cost of 50,000 vs 0. This is something insurance companies are exceedingly good at. Large numbers even out individual variance (and thus risk).
Its great in that sense, but its terrible in others: businesses now spend a lot more on healthcare organization and decisions, which means they pay less salaries. They are also constraint by insurance companies: employees that prefer one insurance mean that cant choose any employer. There is a high cost to making companies do this, and although collective bargaining is a great benefit, misaligned incentives is another one. A healthy employee pays the same as a sick one, and that is not reasonable. I think people with healthy lives and diets, and less doctor visits should pay less.
> The current US system has providers deal with any number of insurance companies with the differences between their various billing systems (eg there are jobs where people simply have to convert between billing codes used by different companies). It's insanity. State-run insurance would grealty simplify this
This is true, and its insane how handling different insurances is a pain. But that is also brought by the state. Medicare pays this way. Completely vertical systems are very hard to setup, like Kaiser does, mostly due to regulation.
Let me make one last argument against state run insurance: Medicare is like 6% of GDP taking care of 10% of the americans. If expanding medicare for all had the same cost, it would basically eat away the entire economy.
There are multiple reasons why healthcare is expensive. All of them contribute a part and not all of the problem, and all are needed. State run insurance will not reduce physician cost: free immigration of doctors will. State run insurance will not reduce pharma prices: the state actually made itself unable to negotiate drug prices and prohibits drug importation, even from Canada and Germany. State run insurance will not solve hospitals having the legal capacity to block other hospitals from opening near by: that was invented by the state.
Etc etc.
Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Heath care has gotten vastly better over time. Look at 5 year cancer survival rates for example. No. These rates are affected by more screening procedures. Some nipped a potentially fatal cancer in the bud, others just found and removed something that wouldn't have killed the person. To first order there is no change in the effectiveness of cancer treatment as compared to 50 years ago.
That's demonstrably false. Early screening is useful, but that's also a medical procedure. Really what we care about is cancer deaths at a specific age AKA what % of 15 year old people die of cancer and that really has dropped. Even beyond that the absolute rate of cancer deaths in the US peaked in 1990 216 per 100k vs 2015 at 158 per 100k. Which is a massive drop even over 1950's pre screening and younger population…
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-early-detection-of-canc...
>Unless one can follow a cohort over time, there is no way of accurately estimating the probability that a subclinically detected abnormality will naturally progress to an adverse outcome. The probability of such an outcome is mathematically constrained, however, by the prevalence of the detected abnormality. The upper limit of this probability can be derived from reasoning that dates to the 17th century, when vital statistics were first collected. If the number of persons dying from a specific disease is fixed, then the probability that a person with the disease will eventually die from it is inversely related to the prevalence of the disease. Therefore, given fixed mortality rates, an increase in the detection of a potentially fatal disease decreases the likelihood that the disease detected in any one person will be fatal..... Lead-time and length biases pertain not only to changes that lower the threshold for detecting disease, but also to new treatments that are applied at the same time. Whether or not new therapy is more effective than old therapy, patients given diagnoses with the use of lower detection thresholds will appear to have better outcomes than their historical controls because of these biases. Consequently, new therapies often appear promising and could even replace older therapies that are more effective or have fewer side effects. Because the decision to treat or to investigate the need for treatment further is increasingly influenced by the results of diagnostic imaging, lead-time and length biases increasingly pervade medical practice.
>There is another complication that these more powerful imaging modalities can lead to that wasn’t discussed in the paper, stage migration. This is a phenomenon that occurs when more sophisticated imaging studies or more aggressive surgery leads to the detection of tumor spread that wouldn’t have been noted in an identical patient using previously used tests. This phenomenon is colloquially known in the cancer biz as the Will Rogers effect. The name is based on Will Rogers’ famous joke: “When the Okies left Oklahoma and moved to California, they raised the average intelligence level in both states.” This little joke describes very well what can happen in cancer. What in essence happens is that technology results in a migration of patients from one stage to another that does the same thing for cancer prognosis that Will Rogers’ famous quip did for intelligence. Consider this example. Patients who would formerly have been classified as, for example, stage II cancer (any cancer), thanks to better imaging or more aggressive surgery, have additional disease or metastases detected that wouldn’t have been detected in the past. They are now, under the new conditions and using the new test, classified as stage III, even though in the past they would have been classified as stage II. This leads to the paradoxical statistical effect of making the survival of both groups (stage II and III) appear better, without any actual change in the overall survival of the group as a whole. This paradox comes about because the patients who “migrate” to stage III tend to have a lower volume of disease or less aggressive disease compared to the average stage III patient and thus a better prognosis. Adding them to the stage III patients from before thus improves the apparent survival of stage III patients as a group. The converse is that patients with more disease that was previously undetected, tended to be the stage II patients who would have recurred and done more poorly compared to the average patient with stage II disease; i.e., the worst prognosis stage II patients. But now, they have “migrated” to stage III, leaving behind stage II patients who truly do not have as advanced disease and thus in general have a better prognosis. Thus, the prognosis of the stage II group also ends up appearing to be better with no real change in the overall survival from this cancer.
Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
#208A hospital system in California should have done one of these on me, but instead didn't and I went with a herniated disc for 10 years longer than I needed to. Finally a hospital in Texas did an MRI and discovered it and I had surgery to address the issue. Previously it had been brushed off as a muscle strain or sciatica and i was constantly given pain medication that only masked the symptoms of a bigger problem. My life may be a completely different place right now had someone just done an MRI years ago. unfortunately I didn't know to ask for one. :/
"I am far more concerned about doing too little than doing too much"
this is exactly why so many "unnecessary" tests and procedures happen too, unfortunately.
There's also a lot of "I want you to DO something" that causes physicians to overprescribe antibiotics/etc because otherwise, they know that the patients are going to give them a lower survey score, which directly affects reimbursements. Tying reimbursements to patient satisfaction scores is an awful idea that needs to go away yesterday.
http://kunr.org/post/patient-satisfaction-surveys-make-docto...
Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
It actually would. No need for sarcasm on that comment.
I expect most of the laws were put in place to deal with problems in the system, just blindly removing them all on an ideological basis probably isn't a good idea.
Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps you could share the procedures so others would know to be skeptical if they are in the same situation?
The nutshell is don't ever have foot surgery unless it's to repair a catastrophic injury/trauma and there is no choice if you want to save the foot. The risk/failure rates are so high and not honestly explained. I was left with ruined joints, damaged tendons, nerve damage, and RSD that spread up my legs and affects my whole body to a degree. I was misinformed and flat out lied to and have never met someone to this da…
I simply feel that the world is way less deliberately malign that we picture it to be (especially when we're its victim).