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Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

newyorker.com

131–140 of 256 posts

Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

#131

I was preparing to make a long post asking for ideas/help (been saying that for weeks but it's ready and I was waiting to Monday since weekends are slower) This sort of thing ruined my life, cost me everything, and has finally brought me to the precipice. I was convinced 15 years ago to have surgery to "prevent later disability" and it ironically left me disabled and in severe pain. I later found out abroad from seve…

Perhaps you could share the procedures so others would know to be skeptical if they are in the same situation?

The nutshell is don't ever have foot surgery unless it's to repair a catastrophic injury/trauma and there is no choice if you want to save the foot. The risk/failure rates are so high and not honestly explained. I was left with ruined joints, damaged tendons, nerve damage, and RSD that spread up my legs and affects my whole body to a degree. I was misinformed and flat out lied to and have never met someone to this day who had such surgery that was better for it either immediately or in the long run. It ruined my life and I lost everything.

Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

#132
post #21

Everyone has a story like this. I went in for a physical and even though they said to my face my insurance would fully cover a heart electrocardiogram (my family has a history of heart problems) I wound up with a huge bill, month long fight with insurance, and ended up just having to foot it. Maybe if medical care was driven by some other force besides capitalism this wouldn't be such an issue.

Essentially identical story in my family. And to address the sibling comment's question in my case : the hospital has a _recording_ of the insurance company rep on a phone call stating that the procedure was covered. However it appears this achieves nothing because the insurance company can use their magic powers of "pound sand suckers" and we had to pay anyway. Hospital denies any responsibility because they called insurance and were told they had coverage, and they kept a recording of said call. The fact that providers routinely record their calls to insurance companies tells you something in itself.

Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

#133
post #81

There issue is two folds here. 1. Medical liability. Doctors must cover their basics or will get sue. 2. There is no cost relationship between doctors and patients. Doctors and patients work with 3rd party call health insurers. Worst, a lot of people (medicaid recipients) have no skin in the game. Obama could have fixed item #2 with a universal health care that require (1) doctors to list the price of their services…

Healthcare is expensive for multiple reasons, the fee structure being a part of it.

If insurance were decoupled from the employer, the individuals would be able to pick the best insurance as opposed to a negotiated insurace by the employeer. That would move people to what is generally considered the best insurance options and that alone makes the competition a lot better.

As a patient you dont know which one is better medical care, but you will make some sort of judgement per-insurance.

THere are other issues, like restrictions on the importation of drugs, restrictions on the immigration of doctors, high law suit liabilities that end up costing a lot in insurance and processes that not necessarily are better healthcare, etc.

Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

#134
I worked in health insurance, and had a graduate degree in health policy, before I second-careered into medicine. I helped implement some of the programs that Guwande promotes in this article; I was and am a true believer in some of these programs, and have built my medical career around implementing them properly.

I say all that to provide an important caveat: Guwande's a Harvard-associated surgeon largely insulated from what any of this looks like on the ground, and basically collects anecdotes that match his views until he can tell a nice just-so story. The reality is far more complicated than he relates, and shared savings programs are far from some sort of medical panacea that addresses all the imbalanced and chaotic incentives in medicine.

A few big nitpicks:

(1) The ACA Shared Savings program is and was bullshit for providers. Because it was built on top of "traditional Medicare", meaning a non-HMO arrangement that did not infringe on pt's right to seek as much care as they wanted, from whomever they wanted, there was no actual assignment of responsibility. If Doctor X is to share in the profits of saving the system D dollars, you have to be able to measure the savings he generates. However, no patients are "his" - we just measure which PCP patients go to the most in a year and give the doc a benchmark based on those. This was based on an assumption that most people saw their PCP at least once/yr. Turns out that not only do people not see their PCP once/yr, but plenty are snowbirds, or have a rotating list of multiple PCPs. Medicare has not fixed the attribution issue.

(2) The most effective way to create savings remains to deny care. There's a reason there was an HMO backlash. Creating that incentive reduces costs/spending, but ...

(3) The vast majority of physicians do not work in pure capitated programs. They work in a mixture of shared downside, shared upside, and FFS. You can't manage patients with a mix of payors like this, because you still have to build your daily operations around the largest volume - the FFS folks. This is what I saw the most of in the rollout of the ACA: docs were "enrolled," sure, but ACO's still pay out on top of FFS, and the rest of the patients are normal FFS + shared risk, the result is daily operations built around volume, not around "spending 45 minutes to review how to take insulin."

4) Docs over-test and overprescribe for medicolegal issues that no amount of incentive-shifting can fix. Hell, my hospital antibiogram doesn't even have pseudomonas sensitivity to pip, just pip/tazo, despite the fact that pseudomonas pretty much never needs pip/tazo (the /tazo is a spectrum extender). But prescribing pip/tazo over pip is something akin to "no one ever got fired for buying IBM." Hell, we do baseline kidney function tests before giving contrast in emergency radiology, despite the fact that the biggest studies to date show that baseline kidney function doesn't have any predictive value for contrast-induced nephropathy-related outcomes 6 mos out. It's a pointless delay that actually hurts patients and costs money. But you know what? No one sues a doc for getting worse in an ED while awaiting a lab result - that " just happens". They do sue a doc for contrast-induced nephropathy, because that looks like something a doc actively caused (well, it is) - and a malpractice attorney will slam your balls to the wall for "why didn't you look at his kidney function before throwing kidney toxins at him?"

The malpractice thing is honestly more insidious than that, even. It gets docs out of the mindset of thoughtfully asking "well, WHY would I order that test? How does it advance the diagnosis or management meaningfully?" to a "might as well order it to be on the safe side" mindset that infects the rest of their practice. The latter creates sloppy, over-broad testing regimens.

Heck, we can't even utilize the latest research unless we can convince multiple departments worth of docs to agree on it. Because the standard for malpractice is what your peers would do, "I did X as part of our department standard, as agreed upon by all the docs in X and related specialty Y" is a very strong malpractice defense. If you can't convince all of those people to get on board and change department policy and just try to practice based on the most up to date data yourself, a malpractice attorney's question becomes: "Where did you get your PhD in statistics and clinical trial design? Oh, you don't have one? So what made you qualified to take in this study and overrule a panel of national experts on the topic that decided what the standard practice is?"

We really need an iatrogenesis compensation fund built at the national level, and to get rid of malpractice suits. That will bring down bullshit spending by a fair degree right off the bat.

A related issue that people overlook is that about 70% of the growth in HC costs is attributable to technological advance: new drugs, or hiked up drugs, new tech, etc. We want all these things, but refuse to take into account that they demand a premium (even when they're not actually more effective.)

I could rant for ages.

Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

#136
post #14
post #6

This article makes it sound like medical costs in the US could be halved if everyone understood this problem, and did their own research on proposed procedures.

Nice idea, but how realistic is it? Most patients are not scientifically-literate, some are flat out incapacitated. For all the stories about heartless insurance companies denying to pay for things, perhaps they should actually be more strict. As in, refuse to pay for anything unless there is 1) rock-solid (i.e. double-blind, placebo-controlled) evidence that it helps 2) for a specific, objectively verifiable indicat…

> "3) when provided by a doctor whose track record is demonstrably non-inferior to that of other practitioners"

This is interesting. I think there will always be a somewhat normal distribution of medical skill among doctors so how do we decide whose track record is good enough to preform which procedures? We probably don't need top preforming doctors to implement every procedure but then how do we decide which procedures warrant a top doctors time? And if there is a shortage of qualified specialists in a region or if something is particularly urgent isn’t an under achieving doc better than no doc at all? Maybe. Maybe not. I think there is a lot of gray area here. I guess ideally the hope would be that the distribution of skill among doctors is really narrow so the difference between top docs and bottom docs is not that pronounced. Even still, I think there are some interesting problems around ranking/rating doctors against one another.

Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

#137
post #45

For the physical harming, Nassim N. Taleb wrote a book called "Anti-Fragile" desribing the concept of iatrogenic illness. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/iatrogenic An alarming fact was less dying patients when an hospital workers were in a strike action (during 2 weeks).

Johns Hopkins study suggests medical errors are third-leading cause of death in U.S. https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical-errors-third-leading-...

I used to think that was an inflated figure and that they didn't account for the fact that the people in the hospital were sick already and attributing their death to a missed pill is a bit like saying it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Then I used our local hospital a couple of times and I'm not so sure. I had thought you would need to be a conscientious person to be a nurse, but apparently it is not the case.

It doesn't help that the hospital has this IT system that is no doubt fully HIPPA compliant, but absurdly restrictive in actual use. Nurses couldn't get notes from the previous nurse because of permissions issues pretty much every time. They wouldn't even know the notes were there unless we reminded them, there was no indication that they were not seeing the full picture.

Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

#138
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you have terminal cancer Maybe you meant "if you have treatable cancer" If it's truly terminal, not much a doctor can do for you other than palliative care, which generally shouldn't require a hospital.

That's not really true. Having just been through this with my mother there is a huge amount of hospital care required during terminal cancer. For starters radiotherapy is often used to control symptoms. It may not do anything for length of life but targeting key tumours can keep you mobile for longer, reduce the risk of seizures etc. It can be a boon to quality of life. There will also almost certainly be other thing…

>For starters radiotherapy is often used to control symptoms.

I believe this falls under palliative care, if it is only to control symptoms.

Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

#139
post #110
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They cause harm due to overdiagnosis and over treatment. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-skeptical-look-at-screeni...

Shouldn't a distinction be made between asserting this for a population vs. for an individual? Yes, for a population it results in overdiagnosis and over treatment. As a personal decision, though, I understand this and will choose how to proceed with that in mind.

>Shouldn't a distinction be made between asserting this for a population vs. for an individual? Yes, for a population it results in overdiagnosis and over treatment.

We get overdiagnosis and overtreatment of the population precisely because it is done at an individual level.

Re: Unnecessary medical care is harming patients physically and financially (2015)

#140
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scans don’t cause overdiagnosis. Eager checklist-driven doctors cause overdiagnosis. You will see incidentalomas, how you use that information is not preordained.

Scans directly cause overdiagnosis. It's very non-intuitive but scans and tests have the potential to cause more harm than good. From TFA: >Overtesting has also created a new, unanticipated problem: overdiagnosis. This isn’t misdiagnosis—the erroneous diagnosis of a disease. This is the correct diagnosis of a disease that is never going to bother you in your lifetime. We’ve long assumed that if we screen a healthy po…

Solution -> never show a scan to a doctor who will over-react to an incidentaloma
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