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U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

bloomberg.com

181–190 of 209 posts

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#181
post #177
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, why are you telling people how to have discussions? It seems like he thinks their argument is dishonest strawman and manipulative. The discussion is usually improved by people pointing that out, as it makes such argumentation less likely.

The problem is that he only thinks this, with hardly anything to back it up, and doesn't discuss the substance. He merely talks about his impression of the discussion. The reply is correct, many discourses can also be considered "one sided", such as Socratic dialogues. However, it is also very possible that the commenter feels it's that way because they are biased to one or the other side of the debate themselves. I…

No, he's not the only one. Most of the arguments used are not the strongest possible arguments but are in fact extremely flawed, precisely in the ways you took them apart. fancy that.

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's household income, including your spouse's income. Your half of that is significantly less than what a senior cardiologist or senior partner at a law firm makes.

A senior cardiologist or a senior partner at a law firm is not remotely a typical professional at the height of their career. Even a typical physician or a typical lawyer is highly unlikely to ever reach that level. Cardiology is a high paying specialty that most physicians will not be in. Most lawyers will never even make it into big law much less make senior partner after making it into big law.

You could also have a year where you sell a house in excess of the gain exclusion, sell a rental property, cash in some stock options, convert an IRA into a Roth, sell a bunch of appreciated stock, sell a small business, or sell some other capital asset.

Those "one time" activities will all temporarily boost your AGI, meaning people come into and out of the "top 5%" brackets pretty regularly. It won't get you into the top 0.001%, but could easily boost what you think of as a "normal" two-income couple into the top 5% or 1% at some point in their life.

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#183

What would you rather have? 1) Perfect income equality (1:1 poorest:richest), but everyone is starving and most don't live out of childhood 2) Perfect income inequality (1:~infinity poorest:richest)), but the poorest in the world have a much higher standard of living and that standard is going up 3-5% a year. The point I'm driving at here is that income equality, by itself, isn't automatically desirable if the cost i…

I'll take a false dichotomy to go please

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#184
post #3

The original link is more instructive: http://www.epi.org/publication/the-state-of-american-wages-2... The Bloomberg article didn't even mention whether the changes were adjusted for inflation (they are).

The Bloomberg article specifies them as "real wages", which are, by definition, adjusted for inflation.

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's not what I said. I'm arguing for the same thing you are. But income inequality isn't itself a problem if there is mobility between the income groups. They statistics in the Bloomberg article show income inequality but don't show lack of mobility, and then say we've hit "a disturbing new threshold". There may be lack of mobility along with income inequality, but the article doesn't demonstrate it.

I disagree for two reasons. 1) What is mobility? The ability to move out of the lowest income group? How easily does that happen? If it's quick and easy, why doesn't everyone do it? And what about the reverse? How easy it for a person to move from a median income back into the lowest income. I think the idea of mobility is used as a reinforcement for the protestant work ethic / American dream sort of delusion that sa…

> How easy it for a person to move from a median income back into the lowest income.

Many people do when they retire. Or when they take time off between jobs (intentionally or not).

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#186

What would you rather have? 1) Perfect income equality (1:1 poorest:richest), but everyone is starving and most don't live out of childhood 2) Perfect income inequality (1:~infinity poorest:richest)), but the poorest in the world have a much higher standard of living and that standard is going up 3-5% a year. The point I'm driving at here is that income equality, by itself, isn't automatically desirable if the cost i…

Is standard of living increasing? At least in terms of wage growth adjusted for inflation that’s not true.

Do you believe that the 25th percentile of income today has a higher standard of living than the 50th percentile person in "the golden age" of 1950? I do.

Today's 25th percentile person is likely to have air conditioning, refrigeration, internet, a cell phone, a microwave oven, an HDTV, and a reliable car that needs very little routine maintenance and has air bags and antilock brakes.

Today's 50th percentile is beating 1950s 75th percentile adding easy, affordable, safe, and reliable air transportation and living in a far larger house than their 1950s half-again higher counterpart.

Today's 75th percentile is beating the 95th percentile in 1950.

All of them have better health care options, and a longer life expectancy.

Real wage growth may not have arrived for those who trade their hours for wages, but the standard of living available from those wages has risen dramatically.

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#187
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there has been a successful campaign to vilify the 1%. When you look at income levels, the 1% includes doctors, lawyers, lots of small business owners, and even many software engineers that got good stock grants in Silicon Valley. So picking 1% as the threshold was very ill-conceived because now it includes many expert professionals and small business owners. So it's very easy to relate to them if you are als…

er, small business owners making $800,000+ a year? I don't think that's very easy to relate to. Who is waging this campaign? I don't think is a campaign to vilify the 1% as much as it's an increased awareness by the 99% that no one needs to be making $800,000 a year. As people see home ownership being increasingly implausible, healthcare difficult to afford, fulfilling work unable to be found and less than $1000 in s…

The number you're looking for is $465k. https://www.investopedia.com/news/how-much-income-puts-you-t...

>that no one needs to be making $800,000 a year.

And that's where the mistake is. A significant number of people (including me) are fine with someone creating a company, selling it for a few million, or just having 10 good years of operation and retiring. The rewards for creating something new need to be worth the risk of complete failure and loss of income for those years.

This is the problem with using 1%. The bottom of the 1% is filled with normal professionals that took huge risks (starting businesses) or spent a significant amount of time in training (brain surgeon).

>As people see home ownership being increasingly implausible

Not if you give up on living in the most expensive parts of the US. Even then, a housing shortage is hardly attributable to income inequality. Just look at the bay area where there are people making good money. The housing shortage has caused prices to sky rocket to absorb up all of that difference. If you have 1000 people fighting for 100 houses, 900 people are going to get screwed regardless of income inequality.

> healthcare difficult to afford,

A broken healthcare system can't be fixed by fewer rich people.

>fulfilling work unable to be found and less than $1000 in savings

Capping incomes of successful professions will not add more fulfilling professions nor will it increase their savings.

>Who is waging this campaign?

Well people like you who claim nobody needs to make a lot of money and then blame a bunch of unrelated issues on income inequality. I can't tell if it was just the mathematical ignorance of who started the movement or if it was partially orchestrated by the super-rich. But by making it include skilled professionals that had to put in huge risks to get where they are, they lost significant support of the population within 50% of that income.

>is it any wonder people are upset, bothered and judgemental of people who make an impossibly larger amount of money than 99% of people?

I don't know what "impossibly larger" is supposed to mean in this context. Someone who makes $250k will not see someone who makes $500k as making an "impossibly larger" amount of money than them.

If this whole movement had been more carefully crafted to exclude people that had to go to medical school and go $350k into debt, I don't think there would have been very much disagreement from a significant chunk of the US. As it stands, it just looks like an arbitrary cut-off screwing the people who managed to secure a good life rather than being focused on people with enough money to hire full-time Washington lobbyists.

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't have a mock strawman argument this long. If you have a point to make, just make it. Don't write up a whole argument that includes weak responses so you conveniently 'win'.

Would Plato's 'The Republic' qualify also an overly long strawman? I think you missed the point of the comment to which you're responding. Also, why are you telling people how to have discussions?

>Would Plato's 'The Republic' qualify also an overly long strawman?

Yes, it's designed to illustrate a point and not engage someone in a discussion.

The comment I'm responding to just had a bunch of misrepresentations of people he/she disagrees with.

>Also, why are you telling people how to have discussions?

It's not a discussion, it's a lecture buried in a fake conversation without facts.

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#189
post #177
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, why are you telling people how to have discussions? It seems like he thinks their argument is dishonest strawman and manipulative. The discussion is usually improved by people pointing that out, as it makes such argumentation less likely.

The problem is that he only thinks this, with hardly anything to back it up, and doesn't discuss the substance. He merely talks about his impression of the discussion. The reply is correct, many discourses can also be considered "one sided", such as Socratic dialogues. However, it is also very possible that the commenter feels it's that way because they are biased to one or the other side of the debate themselves. I…

You didn't start a discussion. You lectured with a strawman conversation.

Re: U.S. Income Inequality Hits a New Threshold

#190

What gets me is the job holders in the upper 20% who actively support a system that benefits the non-working (or don't need to work) top 1%. I make a pretty high wage compared to a cashier at a store, but my interests align with them a lot more than a Walton. Yet my peers are convinced that because they have the trappings of the petite bourgeoisie and a well funded 401k that they have more in common with a Koch. I'm…

Why not vilify George Soros or ultra-rich Hollywood as well?
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