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Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

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201–210 of 333 posts

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans are very good at holding lots of exceptions in our heads and, in the absence of clear rules, doing reasonable things. Computers are shit at both of the above. Which is a remarkably concise summary of my thoughts regarding self driving cars.

When did you form those thoughts? The last 10 years has had pretty monotonic progress in the opposite direction. It seems unlikely for the technology to suddenly stop and certainly not go backwards.

It's that 80/20 rule... I'm sure Canada saw monotonic progress in their payroll system over the last 10 years, too. But with cars, the 20 can kill, not just screw up paychecks.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#202
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in 1999, I was in the elevator and I heard the admin. staff say PeopleSoft (the software) doesn't do anything. This was @ Polytechnic Uni. in Brooklyn. This conflicted with the school's public message where (officially) adopting PeopleSoft was a big step in the right direction. I always wondered if PeopleSoft improved since. I guess not?

My employer recently switched from PeopleSoft to Oracle for HR stuff. So now instead of the system itself being slow to respond, it is plenty responsive when I put in for time off. However, if I fill out the form too quickly it rejects the input as invalid. They can't even get form input validation to work correctly.

Stuff like this reminds me of "Star Wars: A New Hope", where people noticed how the storm troopers kept missing Hans Solo despite having so many hi-tech rifles firing at him. "How can they miss him? They are highly trained and so many of them firing at him at once." These IT anecdotes might explain why.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#203

As a Canadian who has worked at IBM, I'm not surprised that this didn't find success. In IBMs defense, I don't believe our public sector has the experience or aptitude required to act as a supporting interface for a job of this scale. With that being said, IBM isn't a successful technology company with a proven record building good software products. They were an unwise choice from the get-go. IBM is a successful fin…

As an American who has worked at IBM, I'm also not surprised that this didn't find success.

They messed up my own payroll, by sending too little, then too much, then we had a 6 month back and forth trying to resolve it.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#204
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did they fail?

Well, one possibility is that I am the common factor in all of my bad relationships. But another possibility is that projects tend to get named 'Phoenix' for a reason, and that just as in real life, it's pretty hard to successfully be reborn from a pile of ashes.

What are some projects that succeeded and/or impressed you?

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, IBM has a long track record. Their recent history doesn't have a lot of W's though.

That's not true, IBM has way more Ws than Ls over it's history. Now the last few decades, that's a different story I think.

That's exactly what I said.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, what makes a payroll system at this scale so difficult? Complex pre-existing business rules of a large, sui generis employer (governments, especially sovereign ones rather than localities, often are because the laws that apply to other employees don't apply to them, and the rules that do apply often aren't coherent across-the-board policies determined by a central org focussed on HR, but often are set in specia…

Corruption is often brought up, and I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but any time I've been consulting, it's always general issues, personal issues, technical issues, refusing to change, all sorts of standard stuff. Not corruption. It's hard to implement even a minor thing in a large company.

Probably because you don't notice the corruption.

That vendor that has lots of technical issues and the manager that is refusing to change. Well, they know each other and the vendor is giving kickbacks for dragging it out as long as possible.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#207

The Canadian government attempted to build a gun registry, originally predicting it to cost $12M, then $85M, then $1000M, then $2000M, and then it was scrapped. While it's easy to blame vendors like IBM, I have to imagine feature-creep and "what about"-isms lead to such monstrosities.

How many long guns are there in Canada anyway. Could you not use sheets.google.com? I'm serious.

You jest but really it shouldn't cost 2B for a database.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#208
post #181

As a Canadian who has worked at IBM, I'm not surprised that this didn't find success. In IBMs defense, I don't believe our public sector has the experience or aptitude required to act as a supporting interface for a job of this scale. With that being said, IBM isn't a successful technology company with a proven record building good software products. They were an unwise choice from the get-go. IBM is a successful fin…

> In IBMs defense, I don't believe our public sector has the experience or aptitude required to act as a supporting interface for a job of this scale. How in any way is this "In IBMs defense"? We should think it OK that they pursued and committed to a large government contract that in reality they were not qualified to complete? The sentence reads more as a condemnation.

It’s likely more complicated than this and there is probably tons of blame and failure to go around on all sides, particularly on the management and oversight side.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#209
post #154
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Oregon v Oracle over their state healthcare exchange. http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/09/post_18...

Or in Queensland with the $1.5b health payroll failure. https://www.itnews.com.au/news/queenslands-ibm-ban-lives-on-...

Or the Australian Census

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-25/ibm-to-pay-over-$30m-i...

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#210
post #38

Reminiscent of the state of Indiana's lawsuit against IBM for allegedly botching a project to automate the state's welfare system — lots of finger-pointing on both sides; the trial court's 65-page decision started out with the words, "Neither party deserves to win this case" [0]. The case has been up to the Indiana Supreme Court already [1]; on remand last summer, the trial court found that IBM is liable for USD $128…

Sales and Engineering - very different competencies. Companies like IBM are NOT technology companies. They are sales-culture oriented, and their product HAPPENS TO BE technology. In fact you could argue, the only way to win big enterprise contracts in the first place, is to be a sales-culture company.

But after selling the deal, their workers have to solve a difficult engineering and organizational management problem simultaneously (the project).

They use contractors (devs) which proves they are not an engineering but sales culture. So, you need to bridge the two worlds. That's the PMs. These are the most incompetent members of the team. The devs very often are very smart.

Draw horizontal lines on the org chart. The sales guys are at the top. They are generally competent. Proof = they sold a massive deal. The devs are at the bottom. They are often competent. They have to be or they wouldn't get hired or find work. You can PROVE someone doesn't know dev work. But, they don't have enough POWER to change things or fix things.

Reasons for failure:

1. The middle. This is the breakdown. Many PMs often have no real skills. ORGANIZING for success, given a complex technical and organizational problem. 2. The projects are too big. Any huge project is from the get-go at an unacceptable level of risk. Decentralization, Deconstruction is powerful. The projects must be broken into smaller pieces to be managed.

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