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Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

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Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#141

Post by goodroot »

happyopossum wrote: post #130
goodroot wrote: post #77

As a Canadian who has worked at IBM, I'm not surprised that this didn't find success. In IBMs defense, I don't believe our public sector has the experience or aptitude required to act as a supporting interface for a job of this scale. With that being said, IBM isn't a successful technology company with a proven record building good software products. They were an unwise choice from the get-go. IBM is a successful fin…

> IBM isn't a successful technology company with a proven record building good products. Whoa, what? Sure, some of their achievements are in their past, but that claim really overlooks a ton of history.

You're right. That was too sweeping, in fairness. I've edited in 'good software products'; that record is categorically abysmal. IBM makes amazing mainframes and physical technical systems, and conducts some fascinating cutting-edge research, and even built really effective punch-card machines for use within Nazi concentration camps. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust)

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#142

Post by j45 »

AndyNemmity wrote: post #108
j45 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely not true. Software implementations usually fail because of the implementors failing to understand and map the business needs prior to beginning in detail, vs launching with whatever and making twice as much money fixing it after the fact "as you go". I have lead a few full cycle ERP implementations, and replaced vendors along the way if they were not performing. The challenge remains is software vendors are no…

It's a mix, I've lead many enterprise implementations, erp, crm, etc. It's not just the implementors, it's all of the above, from the lack of the customer even being able to communicate the business needs. It'd be lovely if you were right, because the problem is then fixable, but you can take the most motivated, best team of SMEs into a project, and be unsuccessful given the client. It's all a mess trying to get thin…

I agree. To clarify, I'd like to believe any client in the position to spend money on an ERP size solution (including payroll) has earned the right to do so - be they got large enough to have a problem by luck, manually inefficient processes, outgrowing existing systems, etc.

There is still a responsibility in my mind on the implementors part to be experts who can assess the maturity in place at a clients operation, as well as the degree and potential depth of unknowns, as well as their bench's ability to be experts of closing the unknown.

Too often, implementors are focused on landing clients, more than passing on work beyond their pay scale due to trivializing or outright ignoring things.

Every single company is totally different - a desire for implementors to want to templatize as much as they can may be part of the issue.

I'm being a bit harsh on implementors despite being one, I think it boils down to if you don't understand a business in detail, including it's data, before beginning, one should probably not touch it, whether its a client or the other side.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#143

Post by forgotmysn »

happyopossum wrote: post #130
goodroot wrote: post #77

As a Canadian who has worked at IBM, I'm not surprised that this didn't find success. In IBMs defense, I don't believe our public sector has the experience or aptitude required to act as a supporting interface for a job of this scale. With that being said, IBM isn't a successful technology company with a proven record building good software products. They were an unwise choice from the get-go. IBM is a successful fin…

> IBM isn't a successful technology company with a proven record building good products. Whoa, what? Sure, some of their achievements are in their past, but that claim really overlooks a ton of history.

Agreed, IBM has a long track record. Their recent history doesn't have a lot of W's though.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#144

Post by xienze »

kabdib wrote: post #28

Was not surprised to see Oracle and PeopleSoft involved. I hope they get the crap sued out of them. That stuff is toxic, and I pity any organization that Oracle got its claws into using that junk.

> That stuff is toxic, and I pity any organization that Oracle got its claws into using that junk.

In my experience, no one is really duped by these big companies. The people writing the checks generally start their search with magic quadrant leaders and then further narrow it down to the biggest players because "we can't trust our business to some no-name." It's really a situation that companies willingly put themselves in.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#145

Post by bitmapbrother »

I'm surprised there weren't any financial penalties for the IBM practice of over promising and delivering a broken system that generates more problems than it solves. They underbid and embellish proposals with BS to get the contract, staff if with overseas workers to get the maximum return and then hope for the best. This is how IBM does business and it's unfortunate that they continually get away with it by profiting on their incompetence.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#146

Post by lulmerchant »

goodroot wrote: post #141
happyopossum wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IBM isn't a successful technology company with a proven record building good products. Whoa, what? Sure, some of their achievements are in their past, but that claim really overlooks a ton of history.

You're right. That was too sweeping, in fairness. I've edited in 'good software products'; that record is categorically abysmal. IBM makes amazing mainframes and physical technical systems, and conducts some fascinating cutting-edge research, and even built really effective punch-card machines for use within Nazi concentration camps. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust )

If only they could run a payroll system as effectively as they can run a genocide.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#147

Post by ugh123 »

goodroot wrote: post #141
happyopossum wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IBM isn't a successful technology company with a proven record building good products. Whoa, what? Sure, some of their achievements are in their past, but that claim really overlooks a ton of history.

You're right. That was too sweeping, in fairness. I've edited in 'good software products'; that record is categorically abysmal. IBM makes amazing mainframes and physical technical systems, and conducts some fascinating cutting-edge research, and even built really effective punch-card machines for use within Nazi concentration camps. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust )

You're mistakenly conflating IBM's consulting business with the rest of their current technology, both hardware and software.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#148

Post by simonw »

x0x0 wrote: post #60
dragonwriter wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, what makes a payroll system at this scale so difficult? Complex pre-existing business rules of a large, sui generis employer (governments, especially sovereign ones rather than localities, often are because the laws that apply to other employees don't apply to them, and the rules that do apply often aren't coherent across-the-board policies determined by a central org focussed on HR, but often are set in specia…

It seems like lots of the payroll was being carried out by humans in local units. Humans are very good at holding lots of exceptions in our heads and, in the absence of clear rules, doing reasonable things. Computers are shit at both of the above. So things like Bob negotiated with his boss to leave early on Thursday to cover childcare and, in exchange, is coming in early on Tuesdays... but got asked to come in Satur…

Thanks for this, this is an excellent set of examples.

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#149

Post by tootie »

dctoedt wrote: post #38

Reminiscent of the state of Indiana's lawsuit against IBM for allegedly botching a project to automate the state's welfare system — lots of finger-pointing on both sides; the trial court's 65-page decision started out with the words, "Neither party deserves to win this case" [0]. The case has been up to the Indiana Supreme Court already [1]; on remand last summer, the trial court found that IBM is liable for USD $128…

Or Oregon v Oracle over their state healthcare exchange.

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/09/post_18...

Re: Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

#150

Post by ttt111222333 »

> Canada to scrap IBM payroll plan gone awry costing $1B. The Phoenix project was originally chosen by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Conservative predecessors 10 years ago to centralize the government payroll.

Is it me or is this wording terrible?

Trudeau is not a Conservative. It makes it sound like it is Trudeau's party that caused the problem.

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