Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#51

Post by nosuchthing » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 6:23 AM UTC

woah wrote: post #48

nosuchthing wrote: post #38

Does anyone know how Lightening Network code actually routes nodes? The LN claim is basically decentralized BGP but much more complex and prone to race condition errors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8NH67_EfE&feature=youtu.be... The white paper doesn't even mention how LN routing works! 8.4 Payment Routing It is theoretically possible to build a route map implicitly from observing 2-of-2 multisigs on the blockch…

> It seems impossible to implement true decentralized routing, so it's likely they're using some sort of hack to prioritize "masternodes" as the backbone routers instead of actual peer to peer routing. What do you mean "impossible to implement true decentralized routing"? Many examples of decentralized distance vector and link state algorithms exist. I'm not sure what they are doing but routing isn't some mystical th…

Very interesting and impressive project, thanks for sharing!

It seems like p2p routing might work for a small network, but the complexity turns chaotic at scale very quickly. I guess time will tell how effective the LN implementation is.

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#52

Post by alexbosworth » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 6:38 AM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #42

nosuchthing wrote: post #38

Does anyone know how Lightening Network code actually routes nodes? The LN claim is basically decentralized BGP but much more complex and prone to race condition errors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8NH67_EfE&feature=youtu.be... The white paper doesn't even mention how LN routing works! 8.4 Payment Routing It is theoretically possible to build a route map implicitly from observing 2-of-2 multisigs on the blockch…

The whole thing is fishy. The lightning network is pushed by Blockstream, a company which has a large number of devs working on bitcoin core. They were responsible for all the propaganda and talking points against bumping the block size leading to the BCH fork, because they wanted the "correct" solution of their lightning network. The fact that it is so complex and ill defined is dangerous and an antithesis of decent…

This is confused or wrong. They don’t have a large number of devs working on Core. They did propose and code a solution which increased the block size. Saying things are fishy and that open source solutions widely reviewed over years by a broad set of people have some secret easy supposed backdoor, seems pretty wrong to me.

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#53

Post by ExactoKnight » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 6:57 AM UTC

woah wrote: post #48

nosuchthing wrote: post #38

Does anyone know how Lightening Network code actually routes nodes? The LN claim is basically decentralized BGP but much more complex and prone to race condition errors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8NH67_EfE&feature=youtu.be... The white paper doesn't even mention how LN routing works! 8.4 Payment Routing It is theoretically possible to build a route map implicitly from observing 2-of-2 multisigs on the blockch…

> It seems impossible to implement true decentralized routing, so it's likely they're using some sort of hack to prioritize "masternodes" as the backbone routers instead of actual peer to peer routing. What do you mean "impossible to implement true decentralized routing"? Many examples of decentralized distance vector and link state algorithms exist. I'm not sure what they are doing but routing isn't some mystical th…

I was so impressed by this, I went snooping into your Github and saw you are now working on https://altheamesh.com/

Which I have to say, is a very cool project and one I would love to help spread when your protocol can handle 3G or LTE-like speeds. Keep up the good work: you're really on to something with this project!

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#54

Post by tlrobinson » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 6:57 AM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #42

nosuchthing wrote: post #38

Does anyone know how Lightening Network code actually routes nodes? The LN claim is basically decentralized BGP but much more complex and prone to race condition errors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8NH67_EfE&feature=youtu.be... The white paper doesn't even mention how LN routing works! 8.4 Payment Routing It is theoretically possible to build a route map implicitly from observing 2-of-2 multisigs on the blockch…

The whole thing is fishy. The lightning network is pushed by Blockstream, a company which has a large number of devs working on bitcoin core. They were responsible for all the propaganda and talking points against bumping the block size leading to the BCH fork, because they wanted the "correct" solution of their lightning network. The fact that it is so complex and ill defined is dangerous and an antithesis of decent…

This is pure FUD.

Satoshi himself proposed the first version of payment channels [1]. The Lightning Network paper has zero authors from Blockstream [2]. At least two other entirely independent companies are working on Lightning Network implementations [3][4]. It's well understood how trustless LN transactions work [5]. The spec [6] and code are open source, feel free to look for a "backdoor".

1. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Payment_channels#Nakamoto_high-fr...

2. https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf

3. https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd

4. https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair

5. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hashed_Timelock_Contracts

6. https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#55

Post by ExactoKnight » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 6:59 AM UTC

AlexCoventry wrote: post #32

FriedPickles wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If FinCEN rules that operating a lightning node constitutes acting as a money transmitter, it would be unenforceable. It may still discourage operating an intermediate node in the US and shift the majority of nodes to other countries.

Why unenforceable?

The same way Bitcoin can't realistically be stopped by any government. (Short of seizing network hashing power..)

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#56

Post by glebedel » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 7:08 AM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #42

nosuchthing wrote: post #38

Does anyone know how Lightening Network code actually routes nodes? The LN claim is basically decentralized BGP but much more complex and prone to race condition errors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8NH67_EfE&feature=youtu.be... The white paper doesn't even mention how LN routing works! 8.4 Payment Routing It is theoretically possible to build a route map implicitly from observing 2-of-2 multisigs on the blockch…

The whole thing is fishy. The lightning network is pushed by Blockstream, a company which has a large number of devs working on bitcoin core. They were responsible for all the propaganda and talking points against bumping the block size leading to the BCH fork, because they wanted the "correct" solution of their lightning network. The fact that it is so complex and ill defined is dangerous and an antithesis of decent…

Only one of the implementation is coded by blockstream. It's a protocol, anybody else can create an implementation of it. Several other companies have created clients like LND (https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd) - probably more popular than clightning.

> How do we know that there isn't an easy backdoor that allows this network to be controlled for Blockstream's purposes?

The code of clightning is open source, so is the code of most known clients out there.

> The fact that it is so complex and ill defined is dangerous and an antithesis of decentralized system design and ethos

Your comment really seems like a baseless conspiracy theory full of ad hominems with no proof of what you mention: - it's not that crazy complex compared to all the intricacies / op codes and game theory of the Bitcoin base layer - it is more easily distributed than the base layer since it's easier to run a LN node by itself (albeit still relying on a bitcoin full node that may not be in your control if you wish it so).

And like other said, Blockstream doesn't have many employees working on the base protocol (3 now afaik since Luke Dash JR & G.Maxwell do not work for Blockstream anymore). The few they have actually made very useful contributions to the code base since 2011/2012 which you can easily see through and most of their code is also used in all forks of Bitcoin aka BTG, BCH etc...

> They were responsible for all the propaganda and talking points against bumping the block size leading to the BCH fork

Any proof on that? Almost no bitcoin developers (albeit none apart of maybe 1 if you count Gavin which didnt contribute for years on the code base) left to work on this particular fork. There was no scientific consensus stipulating larger blocks (than 4mb) would be safe hence why the community at large did not support BCH (and why it has a minority of market share and mining share, TX usage etc).

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#57

Post by monkeyfoop » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 7:40 AM UTC

woah wrote: post #48

nosuchthing wrote: post #38

Does anyone know how Lightening Network code actually routes nodes? The LN claim is basically decentralized BGP but much more complex and prone to race condition errors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8NH67_EfE&feature=youtu.be... The white paper doesn't even mention how LN routing works! 8.4 Payment Routing It is theoretically possible to build a route map implicitly from observing 2-of-2 multisigs on the blockch…

> It seems impossible to implement true decentralized routing, so it's likely they're using some sort of hack to prioritize "masternodes" as the backbone routers instead of actual peer to peer routing. What do you mean "impossible to implement true decentralized routing"? Many examples of decentralized distance vector and link state algorithms exist. I'm not sure what they are doing but routing isn't some mystical th…

LN is DOA.

Routing does not work. And it will never work.

Long live Bitcoin Cash

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#58

Post by zaarn » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 8:01 AM UTC

ExactoKnight wrote: post #55

AlexCoventry wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why unenforceable?

The same way Bitcoin can't realistically be stopped by any government. (Short of seizing network hashing power..)

Or by ruling that it is illegal to buy, sell or own bitcoin.

While bitcoin might continue, most citizens will stop bothering at that point because buying or selling bitcoin shows up in tax audits.

The government can also make it illegal to operate a bitcoin node or transmit bitcoin transactions, including for ISPs, which would get the protocol quickly blocked.

Additionally they could rule Bitcoin to be an illegal form of monetary exchange which would mean that anything you buy via bitcoin would get you in hot water in addition to the tax problems if you can't prove you used a legal monetary method.

Of course, some people might use Tor and somehow manage to get money extracted from the Tax system so they can buy bitcoin without their local tax office knowing... but how many of the Mr. Normal population are able and willing to do that for bitcoin?

I think you severely underestimate the power of the government.

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#59

Post by ExactoKnight » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 8:33 AM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #58

ExactoKnight wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way Bitcoin can't realistically be stopped by any government. (Short of seizing network hashing power..)

Or by ruling that it is illegal to buy, sell or own bitcoin. While bitcoin might continue, most citizens will stop bothering at that point because buying or selling bitcoin shows up in tax audits. The government can also make it illegal to operate a bitcoin node or transmit bitcoin transactions, including for ISPs, which would get the protocol quickly blocked. Additionally they could rule Bitcoin to be an illegal for…

You will have a drug war on your hands, only way harder to enforce thanks to encryption.

It's a losing game, and I think you forget that there are way too many rich people in positions of power who like crypto for it to be successfully killed. The ruling classes actually like it more than the lower classes do.

Re: Show HN: Lightning Network Search and Analysis Engine

#60

Post by zaarn » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 8:42 AM UTC

ExactoKnight wrote: post #59

zaarn wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or by ruling that it is illegal to buy, sell or own bitcoin. While bitcoin might continue, most citizens will stop bothering at that point because buying or selling bitcoin shows up in tax audits. The government can also make it illegal to operate a bitcoin node or transmit bitcoin transactions, including for ISPs, which would get the protocol quickly blocked. Additionally they could rule Bitcoin to be an illegal for…

You will have a drug war on your hands, only way harder to enforce thanks to encryption. It's a losing game, and I think you forget that there are way too many rich people in positions of power who like crypto for it to be successfully killed. The ruling classes actually like it more than the lower classes do.

The drug war hasn't really helped in putting illegal drugs into mainstream use.

Mainstream users will not use bitcoin if it becomes illegal. End of story. Maybe some people continue to use it but it'll probably be far below any drug usage levels.

>It's a losing game, and I think you forget that there are way too many rich people in positions of power who like crypto for it to be successfully killed. The ruling classes actually like it more than the lower classes do.

That's barely relevant because the "rich ruling classes" could still do it. I'm evaluating this as "what if they do" not "would they do"